10-05-2005 17:11									#61
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Intent is the backbone of the definition of genocide. Killing Cambodians because they're cambodian is genocide when it reaches a large enough scale. Killing 2 million cambodians because they're guilty of crimes against the revolution or whatever is just mass murder.

Exactly.

	10-05-2005 17:11									#62
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The definition you're providing for genocide is obviously overbroad, and is not the one provided by any standard dictionary of the English language.

	10-05-2005 17:27									#63
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It's the one which is relevant on the international stage, you guys may like it or not. They don't use dictionaries in international law (at least not to get the defs from there)...

And to be honest, your criticism is valid, but it only shows the general difficulties with the problem. In fact, there are experts who think the def is too narrow, and that for example political groups should explicitly included.

	10-05-2005 17:36									#64
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They don't use that definition as stated in international law either, no matter what they claim. They simply outline genocide vaguely and then leave it up to the actual judges to decide, using it as a guideline.

So arguing about whether or not it was genocide based simply on that definition is dumb. We've already pointed out that strict adherence to it as stated is ridiculous, so either start coming up with examples of the international community prosecuting crimes such as Pol Pot's as genocide, or use the standard English definition of the word, which is much more specific.

	10-05-2005 17:36									#65
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BTW, according to that definition, the one child policy in China is also genocide. Way to make the word meaningless.

	10-05-2005 17:38									#66
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Pol Pot wasn't attempting to destroy a people. If anything, he was trying to do good for a people, in his own twisted way.

	10-05-2005 17:53									#67
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Pol Pot wasn't attempting to destroy a people. If anything, he was trying to do good for a people, in his own twisted way.

This is precisely why he is the worst of the bunch. It's not like he merely provoked an agricultural crisis, complete with famines. He killed almost all of the intellectual class. He used untol violence against the common man. All for the common man's greater good.

True, "genocide" doesn't really fit here, because his aim wasn't the obliteration of his population. However, it was utterly criminal, and the worse crime the planet has ever known IMO.

	10-05-2005 17:54									#68
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Pol Pot wasn't attempting to destroy a people. If anything, he was trying to do good for a people, in his own twisted way.

Hitler believed his war was for the good of the German people...

Still wicked and destructive madness, though.

.

	10-05-2005 17:54									#69
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse So arguing about whether or not it was genocide based simply on that definition is dumb. We've already pointed out that strict adherence to it as stated is ridiculous, so either start coming up with examples of the international community prosecuting crimes such as Pol Pot's as genocide, or use the standard English definition of the word, which is much more specific.

Maybe you can explain me that:

http://www.yale.edu/cgp/KR_Law_trans.06.09.2001.html

Especially Article 4 there.

	10-05-2005 17:57									#70
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Hitler believed his war was for the good of the German people...

hitler wasn't bent on genociding the Germans, but the Jews. He certainly didn't want the good of the Jews.

	10-05-2005 17:58									#71
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^ what I was going ot post

KJ<

	10-05-2005 17:59									#72
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Hitler believed his war was for the good of the German people... Still wicked and destructive madness, though. .

I'm pretty sure he didn't think his actions were good for the Jews.

I never accused Hitler of committing genocide against the German people...

	10-05-2005 18:00									#73
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I'm pretty sure he didn't think his actions were good for the Jews.

Pol Pot didn't care much for the intellectuals or capitalists either.

quote: [SIZE=1] I never accused Hitler of committing genocide against the German people...

I am not talking about genocide.

I am talking about misguided actions that lead to total death/doom.

.

	10-05-2005 18:04									#74
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Maybe you can explain me that: http://www.yale.edu/cgp/KR_Law_trans.06.09.2001.html Especially Article 4 there.

a) I'm not sure that Pol Pot didn't commit genocide (though this wasn't his main crime). He might well have (in fact, probably did) commit genocide against Catholics, ethnic Chinese, etc, whose killings form a minority of the total killings

b) The current country of Cambodia may be applying the term genocide to actions which would not be tried as genocide under international law. Just because Cambodia calls it that doesn't make it so. And this proves why having an overbroad definition is very dangerous. Even if the international community would never think of prosecuting an individual murder as genocide, the fact that their definition does not preclude it enables somebody who has other motivations to prosecute it as such by referring to the UN definition.

	10-05-2005 18:06									#75
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Pol Pot didn't care much for the intellectuals or capitalists either

Neither of which are groups whose systematic extermination qualifies as genocide under any definition presented yet.

	10-05-2005 18:07									#76
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but he did commit metagenocide (where the definition has been expanded to include creed, culture, socioeconomic group, etc)

JM

	10-05-2005 18:10									#77
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Neither of which are groups whose systematic extermination qualifies as genocide under any definition presented yet.

Do I see evasive tactics?

If you read my posts, I never called it genocide.

I named it misguided social engineering...'You' can call it what you want.

But Pol Pot was still a blood-coated beast, no matter
how many middle-class, trendy commies glorify him.

.

	10-05-2005 18:13									#78
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse a) I'm not sure that Pol Pot didn't commit genocide (though this wasn't his main crime). He might well have (in fact, probably did) commit genocide against Catholics, ethnic Chinese, etc, whose killings forms a minority of the total killings

Could be, I don't know either.

quote: b) The current country of Cambodia may be applying the term genocide to actions which would not be tried as genocide under international law. Just because Cambodia calls it that doesn't make it so.

Read how the entire thing with those tribunals there started, it has all to do with international law. It is not that Cambodia does this without international help or without international monitoring.

	10-05-2005 18:13									#79
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Yes, if you want to include things such as socioeconomic class, then he did commit genocide.

Again, this wasn't really his main crime.

Most of his killings were not against these minority groups (which, of course bore more than their share of the atrocities). Most were, in fact, against the same people he thought he was saving. The culture of violence he promoted, originally aimed at specific groups, spread without regard to barriers of race, class etc.

It was madness without method by the end. 1 in 4 Cambodians died. It was possibly the most insanse orgy of violence we've had the misfortune to see in modern times.

	10-05-2005 18:18									#80
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling Do I see evasive tactics?

Not at all. I just like to keep definitions crisp and clear. Confusing the language by heaping all the negative words we can think of on a despicable person does nobody any good. It reminds me of the spread of the word "terrorist" in the last decade.

By the way, I'd like to point out that I'm the one who originally pointed out Pol Pot as one of modern time's worst criminals. I think he falls close behind Hitler as number 2. He had less victims than Mao or Stalin, but his actions seem to be more depraved.

	10-05-2005 18:19									#81
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And the conversation goes round and round, round and round so early in the morning...



robber: give me your money or i'll blow your head off

Poly Poster: excuse me sir but while you may kill me, the caliber of weapon you are pointing at me can not actually blow my head off

robber: What?

Poly Poster: the caliber sir, it isn't suffcient to literally blow my head off

robber: listen *******, give me your money or i'll blow your ****ing head off

Poly Poster: Sir, I have already told you that the weapon cannot possibly blow my head off although it may result in my death.

robber: *pulls trigger and shoots Poly Poster *

Poly Poster: *laying on ground bleeding* See sir, my head is clearly not been blown off, I am mearly suffering a mortal wound to the face.

robber: *walking off with wallet*

	10-05-2005 18:24									#82
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Sorry, spray. I didn't realise Pol Pot was still killing Cambodians.

Not bad, though.

	10-05-2005 18:32									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber And the conversation goes round and round, round and round so early in the morning... robber: give me your money or i'll blow your head off Poly Poster: excuse me sir but while you may kill me, the caliber of weapon you are pointing at me can not actually blow my head off robber: What? Poly Poster: the caliber sir, it isn't suffcient to literally blow my head off robber: listen *******, give me your money or i'll blow your ****ing head off Poly Poster: Sir, I have already told you that the weapon cannot possibly blow my head off although it may result in my death. robber: *pulls trigger and shoots Poly Poster * Poly Poster: *laying on ground bleeding* See sir, my head is clearly not been blown off, I am mearly suffering a mortal wound to the face. robber: *walking off with wallet*

If only more posters were that logical and reasonable. :sigh:

	10-05-2005 18:51									#84
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That reminds me of the priest, wino and physicist joke

quote: A priest, a drunkard and a physicist were condemned to die by the guillotine. The priest is led up to the guillotine and is asked if he prefers to be facing up or down. He replies "I would like my last earthly sight to be of heaven". The executioner than fastens him in face up and releases the guillotine blade. It falls, but stops just within an inch of his throat. "A miracle!" the crowd of spectators shout in unison, and the priest is released unharmed. Next, the drunkard is led up the steps and he is asked if he prefers to face up or down. "Upward", he replied, "so that I can drink, one last time, some good wine you pour down my throat!" After the drunkard is given a drink, the huge blade is released and plummets downward, but stops within an inch of his throat. "Mon dieu! A second miracle!" the crowd cheers, and he is released unharmed. Finally, the physicist is led up to be executed. He also chooses to be shackled to the guillotine faceup. The crowd is placing bets left and right about whether a third miracle will take place. As he lies faceup, he ponders the death apparatus above him. Raising his hand, moments before the executioner releases the blade, the physicist declares, "Wait, wait! ... I see what your problem is!"

While we're on it, I just found this gem:

quote: A man flying in a hot air balloon realizes he is lost. He reduces his altitude and spots a man in a field down below. He lowers the balloon further and shouts, "Excuse me, can you tell me where I am?" The man below says, "Yes, you're in a hot air balloon, about 30 feet above this field." "You must be an engineer," says the balloonist. "I am. How did you know?" "Everything you told me is technically correct, but it's of no use to anyone." The man below says, "You must be in management." "I am. But how did you know?" "You don't know where you are, or where you're going, but you expect me to be able to help. You're in the same position you were before we met, but now it's my fault."

	10-05-2005 18:53									#85
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This thread reminds me of the scene in Hotel Rwanda where Don Cheadle is listening to the radio, listening to Clinton officials (I couldn't determine if it was Albright or Hilary herself) parse the word "genocide."

	10-05-2005 19:00									#86
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The difference is that they were doing it to avoid responsibility, and while they were bickering people were dying.

While we're bickering Pol Pot continues to moulder in his grave.

	10-05-2005 19:03									#87
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT This thread reminds me of the scene in Hotel Rwanda where Don Cheadle is listening to the radio, listening to Clinton officials (I couldn't determine if it was Albright or Hilary herself) parse the word "genocide."

There's nothing wrong with being against the politicization of language. Using genocide to mean "killing people in a way I don't like" cheapens the term, just like the use of the term "terrorist" as "irregular combatant that I don't like" cheapens it.

	10-05-2005 19:03									#88
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I didn't say it was a 1:1 match, KH.

	10-05-2005 19:10									#89
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I don't particularly like being compared to that weasel...

	10-05-2005 19:12									#90
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I'm not a weasel!