10-05-2005 09:22									#1
	Biggest Criminals in History Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Name who you think are the biggest criminals in history are. You don't have to divide it up into eras. You can post as many or as few as necessary.

Prehistoric - Eve
Ancient - Nero, Caligula, any dishonorable Roman emperor
Midieval - a French or English king (whichever of the batch was the most torture-happy)
Renaissance - without a doubt--Christopher Columbus, for starting what would be a long and deadly decline of American Indian civilization.
Modern Era - Crimes in the modern times make things so much worse--or maybe we just know more about 20th century genocides than other time periods. Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Idi Amin, the guy from Yugoslavia(?), Kim Jong-Il and Kim Sung-Il, etc.

Removing genocide from the scope of our investigation I would say the modern era's greatest thieves are those wealthy men who directly exploit impoverished foreign labor, in terms of suffering caused upon the world. But no one stands out amongst all those who fit that category.

For an all-time number one, Columbus. The way he first treated Indians and led other Spaniards to follow makes him an easy choice. Remember, the whole "discovering the new world" business doesn't matter in this thread, it's just about who did the most evil thing(s). It's a shame more about Spanish brutality following 1492 isn't taught.

	10-05-2005 09:25									#2
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quote: Modern Era - Crimes in the modern times make things so much worse--or maybe we just know more about 20th century genocides than other time periods. Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Idi Amin, the guy from Yugoslavia(?), Kim Jong-Il and Kim Sung-Il, etc.

You forgot Pol Pot and Mao.

	10-05-2005 09:26									#3
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I'm the biggest criminal . . . . .



I've just been keeping a low profile.

	10-05-2005 09:33									#4
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Marx

	10-05-2005 09:38									#5
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i'd say ronald ronald reagan. he took morality, and held it down and raped it repeatedly for eight straight years. if thats not first degree (pre meditated) rape, then i dont know what is.

	10-05-2005 09:39									#6
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I was thinking of mentioning Reagan!

	10-05-2005 09:51									#7
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Ignoring genocide.

What about that currency speculator who speculated Britain into a recession on 'Black Wednesday' to make a billion for himself. Can't remember his name.

	10-05-2005 09:54									#8
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Columbus isn't even close to being #1. That's just the silly rantings of someone who read Howard Zinn and thinks he's been smart.

People like Hitler far outstrip him, as well as later Spanish conquistadors like Cortez.

	10-05-2005 09:55									#9
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LONG LIVE MARX, ENGELS, LENIN AND STALIN!

POWER TO THE SOVIETS!

	10-05-2005 09:58									#10
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quote: Columbus isn't even close to being #1. That's just the silly rantings of someone who read Howard Zinn and thinks he's been smart.

Holy cow, it's like has a satellite zoomed in to my bookcase.

But you're right. I was probably being a little quick to judge Columbus. Hitler, worse than Columbus. Cortes? At most, equal. Pizarro, equal.

But Chris is nowhere near an amiable fellow. I would not hesitate to put him down for 2 or if someone makes a good argument for say Stalin or Pol Pot, 3. I mean, look how little I hesitated to give him 1st place

	10-05-2005 10:02									#11
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Hirohito

	10-05-2005 10:03									#12
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Holy cow, it's like has a satellite zoomed in to my bookcase. But you're right. I was probably being a little quick to judge Columbus. Hitler, worse than Columbus. Cortes? At most, equal. Pizarro, equal. But Chris is nowhere near an amiable fellow. I would not hesitate to put him down for 2 or if someone makes a good argument for say Stalin or Pol Pot, 3. I mean, look how little I hesitated to give him 1st place

Most people who have slammed Columbus usually have their opinions shaped by Zinn's first chapter.

The point is Columbus was NO different than most Spaniards, as shown by later conquistador action. The only difference is that he got there first. I don't think someone can be called the biggest criminal for doing what everyone else would have done.

Frankly, I wouldn't even put him on a Biggest Criminals in History list.

	10-05-2005 10:09									#13
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Well, Columbus was first there--he made the first opinions about Indians being good targets for enslavement, started the first cruel actions toward them.

There were Spaniards (or were they Portugeuese?) that disagreed with Columbus's practices--like the de las Casas guy. And yes, I had heard of him before Zinn's first chapter, thanks you very much. And seeing that none of them had ever contacted an Indian before Columbus, we can't know for sure they would have followed and acted like he did--I'm not a scholar on Spanish-African or Spanish-Asian relations. They probably weren't pretty but I don't think they could have touched the relationship of the Spanish and the American Indians.

	10-05-2005 10:18									#14
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Pol Pot is probably the worst criminal the Earth has ever borne. He isn't the one who killed the most (this dubious honour would go to Stalin, hitler or Mao), but he's the most genocide-happy on the bunch.

The man was so blinded by his ideology that he exterminated 1/4 of his own population for its own good. At least, the other genocidial maniacs either wanted that their targets suffer, or they wanted to gain political gain from it. Pol Pot killed the Cambodgians for the good of the Cambodgians

	10-05-2005 10:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Zulu Elephant Ignoring genocide. What about that currency speculator who speculated Britain into a recession on 'Black Wednesday' to make a billion for himself. Can't remember his name.

Are you thinking about Nick Leeson of Barings Bank?

	10-05-2005 10:29									#16
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Well, Columbus was first there--he made the first opinions about Indians being good targets for enslavement, started the first cruel actions toward them.

If Columbus was an abberation and was abnormally cruel, then the Spanish would have chosen a different path. But they didn't. They did exactly the same and worse. That was simply the attitude of most Europeans during that time period.

The same attitude was behind the slave trade later in history.

	10-05-2005 10:31									#17
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Are you thinking about Nick Leeson of Barings Bank?

I rather think of George Soros. Nick Leeson happened after the great crisis of the early 90ies.

	10-05-2005 10:36									#18
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quote: Cambodgians

pssssst its cambodians

	10-05-2005 10:47									#19
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Oops

	10-05-2005 10:55									#20
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Bush II- while many of the other contenders are dead, this man's just starting his 2nd term and he's already set back progress by at least a couple decades.

	10-05-2005 11:00									#21
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Well, to be fair, it's not only his fault. There's a reactionary wave that sweeps much of the western world, and BushII is only one result among others.

	10-05-2005 11:19									#22
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I fail to see how Bush is a reactionary, in terms of foreign policy at least.

As for Columbus...

	10-05-2005 13:05									#23
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Future - Darth Vader

	10-05-2005 13:06									#24
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Darth Vader lived a long, long time ago.

	10-05-2005 13:09									#25
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I think David Hasselhoff is also a good candidate for his music and "Baywatch"

	10-05-2005 15:16									#26
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Pol Pot, without a doubt. I refuse to discount genocide because....well, i just do.

	10-05-2005 15:23									#27
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Mao Zedong must rank as the worst in history, and Stalin as a second.

.

	10-05-2005 15:36									#28
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I don't understand why people think that Pol Pot committed genocide. What nation did he try to kill off He certainly was a horrible horrible murderous bastard, but I don't get the genocide charge.

	10-05-2005 15:39									#29
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genocide was the common response for most of history

JM

	10-05-2005 15:42									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller genocide was the common response for most of history JM

Wha?