10-05-2005 20:00									#1
	Which scenario do we take on? Poll IV Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

it continues

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	10-05-2005 20:25									#2
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Neither is very appealing to me. I think I'll sit it out. Anyway, the teams democracy game is keeping me busy these days.

	10-05-2005 20:33									#3
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Courage... yep some courage to not vote

	10-05-2005 20:39									#4
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Masuro, I expect in either case, they would be a combo of mods + player restrictions taken upon ourselves to provide more of a challenge.

Ideas list if AoD wins (any of the below):

If we play any European civ, we will neither reserach nor steal any of the native american techs. If we play any Meso Indian civ, we will not buy workers.

1. Mod to make Irqouis playable [start size 3], add domination victory condition at 40%/40%, and try to win via domination or VP on Emperor level.

2. Play a european civ, but try to win via culture [either one,] instead of VP.

3. Play the Incans on Sid and try to win at all.

4. Play as the Aztecs on Demigod+ and try to win without ever sacrificing any workers. (Either culturally or VP)

5. Play a European civ, but try to win on VP without ever returning treasure.

Ideas list if Japan wins

Mod it so that monks may not pillage.
Start as one of the five civs that aren't on the main island,
with the following player side restrictions:

1. We'll never build any Ninjas nor Monks.
2. We will never build the equailvent to the UN; if we conquer it, we will never call a vote.
3. We may not attack any AIs capital unless:
A. That if the AIs only remaining city OR
B. We are going to attack the AIs King [at the most defense their tech allows] with ours. (NO BOMBARDMENT to be used in this case.)

Last edited by joncnunn on 10-05-2005 at 23:21

	10-05-2005 20:42									#5
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Hum, we currently have deadlock:

1 AoD
1 Japan
1

	10-05-2005 20:48									#6
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hehe 3 people post, 3 different votes

	10-05-2005 20:55									#7
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I have played AoD last weekend as England on Emperor, and it turned out to be a cakewalk once the initial years have passed. The trick it to trade every inch of the map immediately for as much as possible. Then I stole a tech from the incas which provided the possibility to build their sacrificing altars (+10 culture per turn per town). After that, it was a race whether VP or culture would score first (VP won by 3 turns)...

Personally, I am no longer in favour of that mod. I discovered several map problems which make historical town placement impossible (since youīre not allowed to settle on forest) and the AI isnīt trying hard enough to take out the natives early. For me itīs ok to either apply most of jonīs proposed changes in addition to some map changes to AoD (or allow settlement on forests), or play Shogun.

Simply because I am now satisfied with Discoveries, I will vote in favour of the Japanese scenario.

	10-05-2005 20:58									#8
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This is too much. I care less with each vote.

	10-05-2005 22:17									#9
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age of discovery only because I have played Sengoku it was very big game just like our current with Rome

	10-05-2005 22:38									#10
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Sengoku!

But joncnunn's restrictions/mods are too much. Ninja's are THE reason to play.

Micha:
Tisk tisk tisk. England sacrificing people! And you were concerned about historical placement of cities?

	10-05-2005 23:26									#11
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I'm added the no stealing or resreaching native techs to the list of restrictions we should try upon ourselves if we are euorpean and the no buying workers restriction if we are mesoindian civ above.

Were not supposed to found cities in historic locations; the rule about no planting cities on forests is to cut down number of potiential city sites in this conquest. Similarly, you may not found cities in jungle in this conquest. You need to chop the forest and clear the jungle first. [chop forest at the slow pre-Conquests rate]

quote: Originally posted by Micha I have played AoD last weekend as England on Emperor, and it turned out to be a cakewalk once the initial years have passed. The trick it to trade every inch of the map immediately for as much as possible. Then I stole a tech from the incas which provided the possibility to build their sacrificing altars (+10 culture per turn per town). After that, it was a race whether VP or culture would score first (VP won by 3 turns)... Personally, I am no longer in favour of that mod. I discovered several map problems which make historical town placement impossible (since youīre not allowed to settle on forest) and the AI isnīt trying hard enough to take out the natives early. For me itīs ok to either apply most of jonīs proposed changes in addition to some map changes to AoD (or allow settlement on forests), or play Shogun. Simply because I am now satisfied with Discoveries, I will vote in favour of the Japanese scenario.

	10-05-2005 23:27									#12
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The AI just can't handle invisible units.

Well, I suppose one option would be to make Ninja's visible.

quote: Originally posted by skrobism Sengoku! But joncnunn's restrictions/mods are too much. Ninja's are THE reason to play. Micha: Tisk tisk tisk. England sacrificing people! And you were concerned about historical placement of cities?

	11-05-2005 01:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn The AI just can't handle invisible units. Well, I suppose one option would be to make Ninja's visible.

Then are they ninjas?

	11-05-2005 01:56									#14
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AI kills so quickly ninjas that I stopped producing them and marched with samurai armies through the opponents

	11-05-2005 02:06									#15
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well the vote for which mods this is not

	11-05-2005 03:09									#16
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Hai!

Ooooh - the vote is close.

	11-05-2005 03:55									#17
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Shogun

I'd prefer to play with no mods or restrictions. Just don't start out as one of the 'good civs' and leave the King unit at home for the first few years and the rest is challenging enough. Play on Demigod or Sid.

	11-05-2005 04:48									#18
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Objection to Ninja use withdrawn, expect that we shouldn't use Ningas to target King units.

On the Japan one on Demigod, I'd want some restrictions. On Sid level for the same one as long as we are one of the poor civs on the smaller landmasses, I'd probably withdraw all restrictions.

So maybe the order of the next series of polls after we have a winning conquest is:

How much do we mod:
A. No mods
B. Implement AU Army Mod as much as applies to conquest
C. AP on
D [If Japan wins] : Disallow monks pillaging.
E [If Japan wins] : Get rid of king units.
F [If AoD wins] : Make Irq human playable

Then after that would be what civ should we play?
If AoD wins, the civs starting conditions should be pretty self explantary, but list them anyway.
Ex: Protogual : starts with Dias Voyage that creates a colonist every 8 turns and a Nav school increasing naval movement and generating an explorer and also in a GA, but has no UUs. Most favored civ to win on any difficulty level.

Incas: The worst start of all MesoIndians and probably worse overall. Only the Irq have a lower chance of winning this. A settler must found a city on a hill tile on the mountian range to bring irrigation to what little grassland & plains is near Cuzco. Jungle can not be settled without clearing [east] and desert on west coast is impassible. [nerfing half of their agricultural traight, and the other half is nerfed in the capital until reaching Cathloic Monarchy.

If Japan wins, it's a must that they starting conditions of each civ be listed.
No civ traights for any civ, but this means building any GW will trigure a peaceful GA.
3 start on the SW most island
2 start on a island NE of that one but S of the main island
The rest are on the mainland, some are on rivers, others a long ways from them.

Next, there should be a poll on difficulty level.

Finally, there should be a poll on what conditions we want to set upon ourselves. If we choose Sid level, I'm inclined to no restrictions if our civ isn't a leading one. But on DG level, I'd want significant restrictions.

	11-05-2005 09:40									#19
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yes a no REGICIDE Japan game sounds interesting

should be simple enough Mod, still keeping the Diamyo, and his upgrades etc

	11-05-2005 11:25									#20
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wow, I'll put the daimyo on the front-line then

	11-05-2005 20:49									#21
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Without the King ability, so will the AI.

Be sure to place AI flags that make sense for the various versions.

The first few versions should probably be AI defense only, the middle versions should be both AI offensive and AI defense, and the last versions AI offense only. (Similar to how in RoR, AI defense flags were removed for all versions of Legions)

quote: Originally posted by ormuzd wow, I'll put the daimyo on the front-line then

	12-05-2005 22:18									#22
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Do we move onto the next poll then?

	12-05-2005 23:18									#23
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism Micha: Tisk tisk tisk. England sacrificing people! And you were concerned about historical placement of cities?

Hehe, good point. But then, we all know that the English are barbarians, and I didnīt say *who* they sacrificed

Anyway, the point is that AoD is much too easy without houserules, and much too inflexible with them. But maybe it is possible to find a golden middle way to make the game both difficult and pleasant...

	12-05-2005 23:36									#24
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I just noticed on a Civ Fanatics thread that there is a bug with custom maps including conquests to where the map size calcs used equals the last random map created by the player who starts it.

This could explain why tech rates & corruption varies on starting on a conquest.

We will need to equalize these settings across the world sizes so that it doesn't matter what size world the program thinks it is.

	12-05-2005 23:39									#25
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Number of votes in each previous poll [including ] :
16 / 24 / 26

So far in this one, there is only 20.

quote: Do we move onto the next poll then?

	13-05-2005 00:31									#26
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jon:
OK. No rush. We still have the Roman world to conquer. For some reason I was thinking this poll was closed.

micha:
I guess it would be OK for England to sacrifice some of the French - and only the French.

	13-05-2005 01:00									#27
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Lets do the Roman one again

	13-05-2005 01:21									#28
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Three Sisters! Three Sisters!

	13-05-2005 06:44									#29
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Number of votes in each previous poll [including ] : 16 / 24 / 26 So far in this one, there is only 20.

up to 22 now, so a will leave this a few more hours

	13-05-2005 15:29									#30
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ok, 24 votes

The Age of Discovery = 6

Sengoku - Sword of the Shogun = 12

= 6




moving onto: do we modify the scenario for a better game?