10-05-2005 21:12									#1
	Civil war/rebellion? Suffering from ads?

Hello all,

was a big Civ 3 buff untill my PTW CD got stolen (literally stolen). VERY excited to hear a Civ IV is due for November it seems.

1 thing I havent found quickly reading over the thread.

Will there be a chance of a Civil war type thing? Like playing as England and then the U.S.A rebelling? Or have they not factored this in?

I sorta hope its in, cuz it would be a refreshing twist when you've already dominated the world by the middle ages.

	10-05-2005 21:25									#2
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Welcome back Ninot.

	10-05-2005 21:32									#3
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Thanks Trip

*postcount goes up*

oops, sorry.

I read through the "features" list for CIV. Civil war ain't there

	10-05-2005 21:40									#4
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Not that we know of yet. This topic came up in anothre thread in this forum

Civil war from Civ2 reference

	14-05-2005 04:14									#5
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I think that civil war was declared "unfun". So it's dead before even being born to test life.

	14-05-2005 05:44									#6
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How could those Philistines call Civil War unfun. YES, it has to be done right in order to BE fun, but this could easily be achieved. Civil war should NOT be about whether you lose your capital, it should be about how content your people are, how big your nation is, how many foreign or heathen citizens you have in your cities, how much culture your cities have, how may troops you have garrisoned, and how well you defend against another nations underhanded attempts to subvert your cities. As DH_Epic from Civfanatics puts it-Civil war would be incredibly fun if it follows the 3 P's-it should be Predictable (to a point), Preventable (to a point) and Provokable in others!
I should point out that the recent UGO article does point to the possibility of your people Rebelling against you-though whether that means anything, it is tough to say!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	14-05-2005 07:26									#7
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Yes, I can see many new players feeling the fun in having a civil war break out in their civ.

They might feel the fun all the way to the trash can when they store their CIV cd.

	14-05-2005 07:50									#8
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Civil war need not be totally debilitating. In Civ3 you could lose cities to high-culture neighbors; why not lose some cities that form an independent nation? It really should be included in some fashion, though perhaps not on the scale that Civ2 had (only because of schmucks who would think it "not fun" - I'd love to see Civ2-style civil wars/rebellion return.)

	14-05-2005 09:09									#9
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notyoueither: Wouldn't you see fun way to bring this in?

It is unfun to get civil war just as to get an invasion. We wont block the AI's capacity to invade though, since a good dose of it seems challenging. Isn't it the same with well-implemented civil-war, just as culture-flipping?

	14-05-2005 12:00									#10
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The thing is that Culture Flipping is WAAAAYYYYY more Unfun than a well implemented civil war model. After all, there was never any warning of culture flips, there was little you could do to stop a culture flip from occuring and there was little you could do-short of going to war with another major power-to get the city back. Yet none of this stopped Civ3 from being a VERY popular game.
In civ4, if the conditions are ripe for a civil war, then your domestic advisor could advise you of the danger, telling you how 'Cities to the East are becoming restive', or something along those lines. Given the improved interface of Civ4, it would be very easy to check those cities that you have been warned about, and formulate a plan to prevent them breaking away. Of course, if you have allowed multiple problems to crop up for a while, then it may be too late to do anything to prevent it when a 'trigger event' actually occurs.
However, even if cities DO break away, with a decent diplomacy system, it should be possible to induce them to 'come back to the fold'-without resort to violence. Even if that fails, then at least you don't have to go to war with an established nation in order to get these breakaway cities back. Plus, imagine the fun of investing money in domestic sabotage, and directing it towards pushing a threatening civ into civil war-then giving diplomatic and monetary support to the rebel cities !
All of which makes civil war a HELL of a lot better than culture flipping.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	14-05-2005 12:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna notyoueither: Wouldn't you see fun way to bring this in? It is unfun to get civil war just as to get an invasion. We wont block the AI's capacity to invade though, since a good dose of it seems challenging. Isn't it the same with well-implemented civil-war, just as culture-flipping?

I didn't find the mechanics of culture flipping fun, in the least.

To prevent it I starved any potentially effected city to 1 pop and left that pop as a specialist. Thus the flip was defeated by mass murder and circuses.

That was an experienced player's response.

I don't see a lot of new players being attracted by a quarter or a third of their cities going rebel for some unobvious reason that they have no idea about. Bismarck attacking without provocation would be hard enough for them to handle.

	14-05-2005 12:47									#12
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Did you not read my post NYE? I illustrate how a civil war model can be created which is easy to handle for both the expert and novice player alike. Of course, a civil war model would work best in combination with a system of Protectorates/Vassalages-such that though you can LOSE half a dozen cities, you can also GAIN the same through clever diplomacy.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	14-05-2005 14:44									#13
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I was responding to Trifna.

Incidently, I disagree that there was little you could do to stop a culture flip. When warmongering, once I learned to starve and leave specialists, I never experienced a flip.

Also, I disagree that close management of cities is anything easy for new players to accomplish.

	14-05-2005 15:37									#14
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First up, your method of preventing Culture Flip sounds as bad-if not worse-as the culture flip itself. It would take AGES for a city like that to get back to a useful state again. Even worse, have you EVER had a city flip to you? If you refuse it, then it will simply pop back up again a few turns later-really annoying you. If you accept, then you are suddenly at war with the previous owner ! With my system, secceeding cities become a newly independant state-thus leaving you with the option of either going to war, or trying to bring them back diplomatically-much better than the Culture Flip system, even if you CAN get around it.
As for new players having to excessively manage their cities. Can you say City Disorder? Avoiding this required frequent, intensive management of all your cities, yet this never drove new players away (and DON'T get me started on pollution ). With the new civ4 interface, however, and with a decent domestic advisor, you should not need to intensively manage your cities in order to prevent a civil war.
I'm sorry, but the more arguments 'against' civil wars that you present, the more sure I become that civil wars are a NECCESSARY replacement for the broken culture flip system.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	14-05-2005 15:46									#15
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quote: First up, your method of preventing Culture Flip sounds as bad-if not worse-as the culture flip itself. It would take AGES for a city like that to get back to a useful state again.

No it's not, it is the most efficient way of controlling captured land in the late game, when you are aiming for a domination/conquests victory. You don't need any more productive cities becusse you already have your cores up and running.

quote: Even worse, have you EVER had a city flip to you? If you refuse it, then it will simply pop back up again a few turns later-really annoying you. If you accept, then you are suddenly at war with the previous owner!

WTF? accepting a city from a culture flip does not start a war. You having a (much) weaker military that the AI will precipitate a war. Try to build units instead of buildings.

	14-05-2005 16:45									#16
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So, what you are saying is that you are OK with culture flips because you can exploit it, and because it doesn't interfere with your Warmonger strategy. This is exactly the problem that I have with culture flips-they are frustrating, but ultimately both weak and pointless, as they simply cannot compete with the Warmonger strategy so popular in Civ2. To me, this does not make a feature GOOD!!! A Civil War system, OTOH, can be a useful counter to both Warmongering AND the 'Snowball Effect', as it is less exploitable via conventional Warmongering tactics. My advice is if civil war is in, and you don't like it, then stick with Civ3 instead.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

	14-05-2005 22:45									#17
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I know Culture flips have a certain level of unpopularity, but it seems that folks are just asking for a better implementation of the concept versus what was done in Civ3.

Was this the first strategy game to have such a concept? It will be interesting to see what cIV brings in this area.

	15-05-2005 00:47									#18
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quote: Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker I'm sorry, but the more arguments 'against' civil wars that you present, the more sure I become that civil wars are a NECCESSARY replacement for the broken culture flip system. Yours, Aussie_Lurker.

There's our misunderstanding. I am hoping flips are gone.

	15-05-2005 02:53									#19
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I will enter the fray with the point of view of a casual player of civ 1,2 and 3. I liked the civil war and was surprised to see it gone in three. I also like the flipping but didn't always see how to prevent/predict its occurrance. Whilst there will undoubtably be a way around either of these for the more experienced players, for the average player the civil war was a great way to rein in an overly aggressive large country. I think with tinkering the flipping could achieve a similar balance.

Cheers,

	15-05-2005 08:32									#20
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I didn't find the mechanics of culture flipping fun, in the least. To prevent it I starved any potentially effected city to 1 pop and left that pop as a specialist. Thus the flip was defeated by mass murder and circuses. That was an experienced player's response. I don't see a lot of new players being attracted by a quarter or a third of their cities going rebel for some unobvious reason that they have no idea about. Bismarck attacking without provocation would be hard enough for them to handle.

Do you think that it would be solved if there was a way to see how it's going and react? Just like moral with culture flipping in Galactic Civilizations...

	15-05-2005 09:44									#21
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"If that's still not enough, you can enslave any racial group of your choice, incite holy wars, and commit crimes against humanity without regret. And if a rebellion starts to overthrow your regime, there's always the reset switch."

That is the quote from the UGO E3 preview. So it should be interesting to see if they did add civil wars.

	15-05-2005 12:08									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Trifna Do you think that it would be solved if there was a way to see how it's going and react? Just like moral with culture flipping in Galactic Civilizations...

I'm not familiar with GalCiv since I didn't pick it up (wanted to but never got around to it).

I am sure that civil war could be done in a way that I would be able to adapt to. Culture flipping was. However, what I recall are the screams from newer players. Although perhaps I am amplifying persistent complaints from a few sources.

	15-05-2005 14:24									#23
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Perhaps Civil wars could be a way of solving the "Eternal China" syndrome? Having part of an empire split of, peacefully (succesian), and keep all of the improvements, culture, wonders, and some of the units that were stationed there (or constructed)? They could form a new civ...

...oh, and congrats on the 10,000 post NYE...

	15-05-2005 20:29									#24
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yes, I can see many new players feeling the fun in having a civil war break out in their civ. They might feel the fun all the way to the trash can when they store their CIV cd.

Actually, civil wars are no worse than culture-flips. They'd be more fun and feel more realistic.

	15-05-2005 21:01									#25
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notyoueither, besides, you should simply get the GalCiv demo

	17-05-2005 19:44									#26
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I was also suprised that the civil-war feature had gone, but when I discovered culture flips (on the losing end), I was suprised that it joined the neibours, and didn't become an independant city state.
Anyway, heres my point , if there are civil-wars, would you be able to decide if you want to stay loyal to your original nation, or side with the newly formed rebels as their leader?

	17-05-2005 22:06									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Gen. Atkinson Anyway, heres my point , if there are civil-wars, would you be able to decide if you want to stay loyal to your original nation, or side with the newly formed rebels as their leader?

It would be interesting to have that choice, but i'd be happy just to have the original nation defaulted and the breakaway nation be of a different government type or religion or cities belonging to a once conquered nation, something like that.

	17-05-2005 23:31									#28
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......or once conquered nations to re-emerge if a rebellion occurs. I like it, Ninot.

A civil-war could also occur if the government changes, or the state religion, or the capital city.

	19-05-2005 04:23									#29
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Yes, I can see many new players feeling the fun in having a civil war break out in their civ.

Well, what if it were merely a game setup option? Just like culture-flipping is in Civ3.

Offhand, I kind of think civil war could be a neat idea. It worked, albeit in crude form, in Civ1...

	09-06-2005 14:11									#30
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I'd like civil war too - if there was a way how to prevent it. (Though maybe it had to be "Don't bite more than you can possibly chew".)