11-05-2005 02:43									#1
	Appeals court rules fox can keep secret advice from foxes on security for hen house Put an end to popups!

Thank you, Judge Randolph et al, for missing the point.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/cheney_energy

quote: Appeals Court Sides With Cheney in Lawsuit By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer 24 minutes ago WASHINGTON - Vice President Dick Cheney doesn't have to disclose the advice his energy task force got from the industry, an appeals court ruled Tuesday in what probably was a final blow to a politically charged lawsuit over public access to White House decision making. The task force met in 2001 and produced pro-industry recommendations for sweeping energy legislation now before Congress. The Bush administration fought hard to keep the panel's workings secret, arguing that public disclosure would make it difficult for any White House to solicit candid advice on important policy issues. Once seen as a potentially huge political liability for the Bush administration, the task force lawsuit ended up being more Washington political theater, with cameo appearances by Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia and former Enron Corp. Chairman Ken Lay. The two private groups that sued failed to establish that the government had a legal duty to produce documents detailing the White House's industry contacts, the court said in an 8-0 decision. The Sierra Club and Judicial Watch alleged that energy executives and lobbyists effectively became members of the task force, while environmental groups and others were shut out of the meetings. Outside participation made the task force a federal advisory committee with an obligation to disclose its operations, the groups argued, a position the court rejected. "The outsider might make an important presentation, he might be persuasive, the information he provides might affect the committee's judgment," U.S. Appeals Court Judge A. Raymond Randolph wrote. "But having neither a vote nor a veto over the advice the committee renders to the president, he is no more a member of the committee than the aides who accompany congressmen or Cabinet officers to committee meetings." In a statement, Cheney's office said the court guarded the confidentiality of internal deliberations and that the Constitution protects such deliberations as essential to informed decision making. David Bookbinder, a senior attorney at the Sierra Club, said the decision "is not going to be helpful in assuring open and accountable government." The appeals court directed U.S. District Judge Emmet Sullivan to dismiss the case. Sullivan earlier had ordered the White House to produce some documents. The Sierra Club and Judicial Watch could ask the appeals court to reconsider or could ask the Supreme Court to take the case, as it did once before. Either option would be considered a long shot. Cheney's task force issued a report that favored expanding oil and gas drilling on public land, rejuvenating nuclear power and lifting the ban on drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska. The focus of the lawsuit: several thousand task force e-mails and 12 boxes of documents. Scalia took a hunting trip with Cheney while the Supreme Court was considering an appeal of the lawsuit. Scalia then issued a forceful defense rejecting calls for him to step aside and let the other eight justices rule. Democrats hoped the Supreme Court would uphold an earlier ruling by the appeals court and force the administration to reveal potentially embarrassing details about its relationship with energy company executives ahead of the November election. But the high court sent the case back on a 7-2 vote, saying there was a "paramount necessity of protecting the executive branch from vexatious litigation." Lay was involved because he met with Cheney — a fact the White House acknowledged to Congress in 2002 only after Enron collapsed in scandal. Lay's contact was among six meetings between Enron executives and Cheney or his task force aides. The day after meeting with Lay, Cheney said the Bush administration would not support price caps on wholesale energy sales in California. Even the investigative arm of Congress got into the act, filing a lawsuit seeking the identities of the people with whom the task force met. Under pressure from congressional Republicans, the Government Accountability Office did not pursue the case. University of North Carolina political science professor Terry Sullivan said the Bush White House's position supporting confidentiality was sound in principle but could be unwise politically. "There is a balance between the need for confidentiality and how that process works when it is being carried out; it's a Caesar's wife problem," Sullivan said. "For example, it certainly was embarrassing to have the likes of Ken Lay advising them." ___ On the Net: Appeals court ruling: http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/docs...05/02-5354b.pdf

	11-05-2005 03:11									#2
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Eh, this seems like perfect logic to me...

quote: "The outsider might make an important presentation, he might be persuasive, the information he provides might affect the committee's judgment," U.S. Appeals Court Judge A. Raymond Randolph wrote. "But having neither a vote nor a veto over the advice the committee renders to the president, he is no more a member of the committee than the aides who accompany congressmen or Cabinet officers to committee meetings."

	11-05-2005 04:37									#3
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Of course, the final court of appeal is always public opinion.

Once the Bush energy policy pushes gasoline prices up to $3.00/gallon and stagflation raises its ugly head, we'll see the American people on the White House lawn with torches and pitchforks.

	11-05-2005 04:49									#4
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No we won't. Americans are sheep.

	11-05-2005 04:52									#5
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I fail to see what is wrong with this opinion. Add to the fact it was an 8-0 ruling, any whining just seems politically based, rather than based on the law.

	11-05-2005 10:51									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I fail to see what is wrong with this opinion.

You, and all 8 judges.

quote: Add to the fact it was an 8-0 ruling, any whining just seems politically based, rather than based on the law.

Again, you and all 8 judges are missing the point. Energy representatives (whose only interest is fattening their own wallets) were the only ones helping Cheney (an energy industry alumni himself) form an energy bill that taxpayers would be paying for. It has nothing to do with my politics; it has everything to do with the blatantly obvious conflict-of-interest that went into the formation of the energy bill that will be payed for by my and your tax dollars. It's going to be another corporate giveaway that will do little meaningful in the way of helping the US' energy problems.

	11-05-2005 10:56									#7
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quote: Energy representatives (whose only interest is fattening their own wallets) were the only ones helping Cheney (an energy industry alumni himself) form an energy bill that taxpayers would be paying for. It has nothing to do with my politics; it has everything to do with the blatantly obvious conflict-of-interest that went into the formation of the energy bill that will be payed for by my and your tax dollars. It's going to be another corporate giveaway that will do little meaningful in the way of helping the US' energy problems.

Yeah, AND?!

Once again, I fail to see what is wrong with this opinion. Cheney did NOTHING against the law. These energy execs had no votes, had no vetos, they gave advice. Who cares if they had conflicts of interest? Hell, if you don't have a conflict of interest, why are you giving advice about energy policy?

Non story.

	11-05-2005 11:03									#8
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And again, you're still missing the point. I'm not going to bother explaining it any further than I have. I shouldn't have to. They're your tax dollars. God forbid you should have even fleeting interest where and how they're misspent.

	11-05-2005 11:06									#9
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No, I get your point... it's a STUPID point. I didn't realize these energy executives voted on the law... oh wait, they DIDN'T!

This has to be one of the dumbest cases I've ever heard brought. I'm surpised they didn't put sanctions on the moron lawyer that litigated it.

	11-05-2005 12:15									#10
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" . . . . arguing that public disclosure would make it difficult for any White House to solicit candid advice on important policy issues . . . . "

	11-05-2005 12:40									#11
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*Sigh*
Christ, Imran, no one here is arguing they got to vote or not. No sh*t they didn't get a vote. They didn't need one; they helped the Vice President craft executive policy which was passed on to Congress to help craft legislation and they donate most of their campaign dollars to Republicans, particularly in Congress who will be the ones voting on said legislation. That's the problem. Cheney didn't bring in "energy experts" who didn't have a sickeningly vested interest in the shape the WH proposals took, nor did he bring in anyone who took a more favorable view of the environment to balance things out a bit. He brought in the very people who will directly benefit from the corporate giveaways and subsidies that now make up this legislation that will only pay lip-service to improving the US' energy infrastructure. And if you think the Republicans - who by-and-large control Congress, the White House, and have majority seats in the USSC - are going to turn down a chance to give money to some of their biggest campaign donors in the form of this energy bill and additional pork that will get tacked on, you're more clueless than Curious George. The energy reps helped Cheney make proposals to a Republican Congress that now has legislation in the works based on those proposals the energy reps helped the VP craft. They basically told Santa Cheney what they wanted for Christmas, Santa Cheney told the Congressional Elves in the Capital Hill Workshop what taxpayer-funded subsidies and giveaways they should aim for making, and energy industry will get most of what it wants out of all this because the Repubs won't say no. They'll just b*tch and moan about Dem obstructionism and unwillingness to be subservient work bipartisanly.

I'd be just as bothered if the tables were turned and no one but environmentalists had been called upon by Cheney. Given that kind of influence over executive proposals would prove too enticing and they would help craft something that would either A) never pass through Congress or B) pass through Congress but cripple the economy, likely doing more harm than good. I'd prefer a more balanced pool of expertise crafting intelligent, workable legislation.

	11-05-2005 12:54									#12
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quote: He brought in the very people who will directly benefit from the corporate giveaways and subsidies that now make up this legislation that will only pay lip-service to improving the US' energy infrastructure.

So? Where is the violation in the law?

quote: The energy reps helped Cheney make proposals to a Republican Congress that now has legislation in the works based on those proposals the energy reps helped the VP craft. They basically told Santa Cheney what they wanted for Christmas, Santa Cheney told the Congressional Elves in the Capital Hill Workshop what taxpayer-funded subsidies and giveaways they should aim for making, and energy industry will get most of what it wants out of all this because the Repubs won't say no.

So? Where is the violation in the law?

--

You are acting like its incredible that the Republicans engage in politics!

What I don't understand is what ANY of this means that legally Cheney should have to disclose the what was said during the meetings. All I'm getting a bunch of political crap. Where is the legal reasons? Here is a hint, the Courts make their decisions on law.

	11-05-2005 13:22									#13
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Since you can't seem to take a hint, please now note that at no point have I said there was a violation of the law. I'm not a legal analyst; I couldn't possibly know whether there was a violation of the law or not. There's plenty of more capable people to watch for things like that. My concern is that my tax dollars be spent on legislation that at least helps me in some way, not goes straight into the pockets of people already raping the citizens of this country as well as willfully damaging the environment which we all depend on. That's why we vote for Congress persons: To represent our interests. Spending our tax dollars by giving them to their campaign donors in the energy industry in lip-service legislation is not in any of our interests. Giving that money to people only interested in maintaining their status quo and their bottom lines at the expense of the middle and lower class citizens' paychecks and health, as well as the environment of this country and its economic viability, is not in any of our interests.

Learning how Cheney used the advice energy representatives to develope proposals for energy legislation helps Congress decide how much to take into consideration those proposals in crafting energy legislation and voting upon it.

	11-05-2005 13:31									#14
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quote: please now note that at no point have I said there was a violation of the law.

Then why are you outraged? The Court ruled correctly. They didn't miss the point at all. Case Closed.

quote: Learning how Cheney used the advice energy representatives to develope proposals for energy legislation helps Congress decide how much to take into consideration those proposals in crafting energy legislation and voting upon it.

Because the law suddenly changes what it is once it is found out who is actually behind it!

Get real!

	11-05-2005 13:38									#15
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America has no elite/pleb caste system....Sure!

Well, the rich call the shots, and the citizens screamed
until they got men like Cheney into power - too bad!

	11-05-2005 14:13									#16
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs You, and all 8 judges. Again, you and all 8 judges are missing the point. Energy representatives (whose only interest is fattening their own wallets) were the only ones helping Cheney (an energy industry alumni himself) form an energy bill that taxpayers would be paying for. It has nothing to do with my politics; it has everything to do with the blatantly obvious conflict-of-interest that went into the formation of the energy bill that will be payed for by my and your tax dollars. It's going to be another corporate giveaway that will do little meaningful in the way of helping the US' energy problems.

You're the one who is missing the point, which is that this is a political issue. If you don't like the fact that Bush-Cheney ask the advice of certain people when crafting legislation then don't vote for them. If you don't like the fact that the executive branch can consult who it likes for advice then pass an amendment to the constitution that limits them in this regard. It is not for the judicial branch to invent a law or provision of the constitution outlawing currently lawful behavior in order to placate the executive branches' political opposition.

	11-05-2005 14:16									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: please now note that at no point have I said there was a violation of the law. Then why are you outraged? The Court ruled correctly. They didn't miss the point at all. Case Closed. quote: Learning how Cheney used the advice energy representatives to develope proposals for energy legislation helps Congress decide how much to take into consideration those proposals in crafting energy legislation and voting upon it. Because the law suddenly changes what it is once it is found out who is actually behind it! Get real!

Congress and the US American people have a right to know where legislation comes from, what "advice" it is based upon. Congress persons can't do the job we pay them for if they aren't given the relevant, necessary information. If Cheney had stood before the Senate and simply told them "Give the taxpayers' money to the energy industry." and nothing more, you're damn right there would be widespread demands for the meeting minutes of those secret meetings. But he didn't say it that way. Instead, he inflated that single sentence into a bunch of proposals he passed on to Congress. Obviously, they don't have to follow those proposals, but the reality of the matter is they are taking them to heart because Congress persons are already receiving millions of campaign donation dollars from the energy industry as it is. The proposals come straight from the campaign donors, both through the Vice President and through lobbyists urging Congress to support this legislation, and Congress is not about to ignore those proposals. The citizens of this country have the right to demand legislation that is smart and a good expenditure of our tax dollars.

	11-05-2005 14:17									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander You're the one who is missing the point, which is that this is a political issue. If you don't like the fact that Bush-Cheney ask the advice of certain people when crafting legislation then don't vote for them. If you don't like the fact that the executive branch can consult who it likes for advice then pass an amendment to the constitution that limits them in this regard. It is not for the judicial branch to invent a law or provision of the constitution outlawing currently lawful behavior in order to placate the executive branches' political opposition.

You should read more of the thread before responding...

	11-05-2005 14:31									#19
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quote: Congress and the US American people have a right to know where legislation comes from, what "advice" it is based upon.

Who says? You? Don't make me laugh! Congress and the American people don't know where 90% of legislation comes from and what "advice" it is based on. Who the Hell really cares, except for pathetic people likes yourself, where the advice comes from?! The BILL is the thing that becomes law, NOT the advice. If the advice is so bad, then the bill is going to be bad as well. Once again, the BILL becomes law.

quote: The citizens of this country have the right to demand legislation that is smart and a good expenditure of our tax dollars.

Sikander was 100% correct. You have the power of the ballot box. If you think this was so horrible, vote them out.

Furthermore, since you already think you know who gave the advice, what is the point in Cheney's revealing of it? So you have have the satisfaction of revealing trade secrets?

	11-05-2005 14:35									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Congress and the US American people have a right to know where legislation comes from, what "advice" it is based upon. Who says? You? Don't make me laugh! Congress and the American people don't know where 90% of legislation comes from and what "advice" it is based on. Who the Hell really cares, except for pathetic people likes yourself, where the advice comes from?! The BILL is the thing that becomes law, NOT the advice. If the advice is so bad, then the bill is going to be bad as well. Once again, the BILL becomes law. quote: The citizens of this country have the right to demand legislation that is smart and a good expenditure of our tax dollars. Sikander was 100% correct. You have the power of the ballot box. If you think this was so horrible, vote them out. Furthermore, since you already think you know who gave the advice, what is the point in Cheney's revealing of it? So you have have the satisfaction of revealing trade secrets?

All that noise, yet you've said nothing...

	11-05-2005 14:37									#21
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs All that noise, yet you've said nothing...

I've said the truth and made sense. More than I can say for you.

	11-05-2005 16:49									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Congress and the US American people have a right to know where legislation comes from, what "advice" it is based upon.

I don't find this in the constitution or the bill of rights. Can you show me where this "right" is spelled out, or should the courts just take your word for it and wing it?

Secondly, the executive does not write, vote on or propose legislation, though obviously friendly congressmen can do so if they choose. It does however have a longstanding and well-established right to seek advice from whomever it chooses and to have that advice be kept in confidence even to the extent that it this trumps congress' oversight role. Only when there is reason to believe that this executive privilege is being used to mask a conspiracy or other crime can this veil be lifted. See Watergate, Whitewater etc. for numerous examples of what constitutes executive privilege.

quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Congress persons can't do the job we pay them for if they aren't given the relevant, necessary information. If Cheney had stood before the Senate and simply told them "Give the taxpayers' money to the energy industry." and nothing more, you're damn right there would be widespread demands for the meeting minutes of those secret meetings. But he didn't say it that way. Instead, he inflated that single sentence into a bunch of proposals he passed on to Congress. Obviously, they don't have to follow those proposals, but the reality of the matter is they are taking them to heart because Congress persons are already receiving millions of campaign donation dollars from the energy industry as it is. The proposals come straight from the campaign donors, both through the Vice President and through lobbyists urging Congress to support this legislation, and Congress is not about to ignore those proposals. The citizens of this country have the right to demand legislation that is smart and a good expenditure of our tax dollars.

So you hate Cheney and special interests and don't want them writing our laws? Good for you, now get to work getting better people into office and better laws passed. You want the courts to do your political bidding in the absence of any legal or constitutional authority? Now your just fvcking up one branch in a vain bid to improve another. Would you be more comfortable living in a country where courts can just arbitrarily make whatver decisions they want?

	11-05-2005 16:54									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Once again, I fail to see what is wrong with this opinion. Cheney did NOTHING against the law.

The Freedom of Information Act isn't about breaking the law. It's about ensuring that we citizens know what our government is doing behind closed doors. It's probably one of our most important laws.

	11-05-2005 16:58									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I don't find this in the constitution or the bill of rights. Can you show me where this "right" is spelled out, or should the courts just take your word for it and wing it?

http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foia_updat...VII_4/page2.htm

This seems to give us the right.

	11-05-2005 17:25									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I don't find this in the constitution or the bill of rights. Can you show me where this "right" is spelled out, or should the courts just take your word for it and wing it?

Please show me where in the USC is the White House's right to keep private these meeting minutes. No, really. I'd like to see the exact law, statue, rule or whatever. I really am curious as I'm not a law buff.

quote: Secondly, the executive does not write, vote on or propose legislation, though obviously friendly congressmen can do so if they choose.

I don't know what planet you hail from, but on this one US Presidents have for a long time overtly provided initiatives for Congress to act upon. Obviously, it is up to Congress to write-up the legislation themselves; the White House can however continue to put in its two cents.

quote: It does however have a longstanding and well-established right to seek advice from whomever it chooses and to have that advice be kept in confidence even to the extent that it this trumps congress' oversight role.

Again, please show me the relevant material since you're so keen on it.

quote: Only when there is reason to believe that this executive privilege is being used to mask a conspiracy or other crime can this veil be lifted. See Watergate, Whitewater etc. for numerous examples of what constitutes executive privilege.

Yes, that may be part of why this lawsuit was brought forth. Partisan politics is likely another part. And, as che mentioned, the FoIA is a legitimate, legal action for people to engage in to try to ensure there isn't funny business going on behind closed doors. As I've already stated, I am not concerning myself with Cheney being a Republican or Congress being dominated by Republicans, I am concerning myself with the unseemlyness of the energy industry trying to help craft White House policies with the help of a very friendly former CEO who just happens to be the Vice President of the United States. As I've also already stated, I'd be just as bothered by the scenario of only environmentalists be confered with as they'd place unreasonable demands for change on the energy industry. So no, from my personal perspective, this is not a partisan issue on my part. Sorry, but it's a non-starter with me.

quote: So you hate Cheney and special interests and don't want them writing our laws? Good for you, now get to work getting better people into office and better laws passed.

Yes, I hate Cheney and I vote. But, as I've already tried to make clear, it isn't about the individual players but the game being played itself that has my interest.

quote: You want the courts to do your political bidding in the absence of any legal or constitutional authority? Now your just fvcking up one branch in a vain bid to improve another. Would you be more comfortable living in a country where courts can just arbitrarily make whatver decisions they want?

Oh God, not that "activist judges" tripe again...



...anyhoo, I've finished my 8-ish page final essay which is due today for my polysci class (despite perusing Apolyton the whole time ) and now I must be to bed. I have to turn it in in 6 hours, go to the bank so I can pay my bills, get gas, finish my UNLV transfer application, take my anthro final, and go to work. Sadly, I've used up all the time I had today to reinterpret ard rewrite standing law. I'll have to wait 'til tomorrow before continuing...

	11-05-2005 20:58									#26
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:VOMIT:

The US is not a democracy anymore, it has become a plutocracy ruled by big business and powerful intrests. The average joe is totally shut out of the iron triangle of Congress, bureaucrats, and special intrest groups (like Cheney's buddies) that create legislation; it's Pluralism Hell. We need PR and run-off elections to make the system more majoritarian so special intrests can't control the country.

	11-05-2005 21:00									#27
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The Freedom of Information Act isn't about breaking the law. It's about ensuring that we citizens know what our government is doing behind closed doors. It's probably one of our most important laws.

The Freedom of Information Act has NEVER been absolute and it doesn't cover confidential discussions the administration has with people in order to inform it of what to do.

	11-05-2005 21:01									#28
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Eh, Odin... this information doesn't provide anything useful anyways. Don't be stupidly knee-jerk like togglecaps...

	11-05-2005 21:01									#29
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Oh, and I think the presidency has become WAY too powerful. It needs to be cut down to size before it becomes an elective dictatorship.

	11-05-2005 21:01									#30
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I'd say its more of a goofyocracy.