11-05-2005 18:46									#1
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I read that we are considering building the SoZ. Why? Like for real do we really want to pump so many shields into such production when we could build so many other units for the same number of shields. All the teams would have iron, horse and ivory, so all teams could build Soz.

	12-05-2005 02:10									#2
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Hey SoS!

Rob has a great explanation here

	12-05-2005 02:41									#3
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If we want to build SoZ, we must prepare for it. Ten shields a turn is surely not enough. We can add our workers to KBH and increase its size to 10 and shield output to 17 per turn. That output will produce SoZ in 12 turns from scratch.

So, we can complete 2 horses first, or a horse and temple, then by that time we'll have KBH producing 17 shields per turn and we can start library, build it for 4 turns and then switch to SoZ and finish it in 8 more turns. This will guarantee nobody gets SoZ before us and we don't waste our shields if they seem like doing it.


The other option is that we switch to library immediately. Following the same procedure (adding workers to KBH) we can have SoZ completed in 13 turns from now.

So, it's either 13 turns from this turn, or 19 turns from this turn plus 3 horses, or 20 turns from this turn plus 2 horses and 1 temple. Temple has its merit as it will likely reduce the need for luxuries.

Following either of these scenarios will also net 2 settlers 4 turns after the wonder's completion (from KBH).

Last edited by Ljube on 12-05-2005 at 02:47

	12-05-2005 12:11									#4
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Good plan

* bongo want SoZ

	12-05-2005 12:38									#5
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indeed it is an interesting plan... but the sacrifices in other areas those we do need to look at

	12-05-2005 15:45									#6
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If we succedes to get SoZ first, we also denies our enemies it. And hopefully they will loose productionpoints.
Go for 13 turns.

	12-05-2005 18:06									#7
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13 turns Yeah!

	12-05-2005 18:12									#8
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Hey! Does anybody know if bongo wants SOZ?

	12-05-2005 18:21									#9
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Sshh, it's a secret

	12-05-2005 18:48									#10
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@ SoS: The Statue of Zeus is 200 shields. The total quantity of horsemen producable for that is 6 2/3. The hp/combat values are: 4 hp per unit (for 26 hp), 2 attack and 1 defense per unit (for 14 attack and 7 defense). The Statue of Zeus will take only 25 turns to top that output. That is why it is such a good investment. Those shields that "could build so many other units" can't really build all that many units and those units can't do anything during the time it takes to build the wonder.

	12-05-2005 19:13									#11
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bring it on folks... lets get this topic fully discussed prior to the Grand Council of the coming days...

	12-05-2005 19:19									#12
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The *real* killer with those ACs is that extra hp. Combined with the retreat ability they are both stronger and have higher survivability(is that a word btw?)

	12-05-2005 19:24									#13
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Yes, yes. Luckily nobody is India here or they would rule!!!

	12-05-2005 22:19									#14
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Rob and I have had a chat about all issues related to the construction of the SoZ. We have perfected my plan and now we only need to add 4 workers to KBH and grow it to size 9, rather than 10.


The plan is like this:

KBH will start the wonder on turn 7 (having built 3 horses or 1 horse and a granary or 1 horse and a temple).

Mildred should have its orders cancelled on turn 1. There are two possibilities: Mildred can move on turn 1 and Mildred cannot move on turn 1. We will assume Mildred can move on turn 1 for the purpose of this calculation.


Mildred will move 4 on turn 1. Then Mildred can move to grass 3 from KBH on turn 2 and start mining on turn 3.

FA should change production to worker. This worker will be completed on turn 3, can move to grass 3 from KBH on turn 4 and can start mining on turn 5. By that time Mildred will already have accumulated 4 st (slave turns). This mine will be completed on turn 6 and Mildred and FA worker can move on turn 7. That is the turn we need them added to KBH, but there is no road unfortunately.

Bob and Harry will complete their tasks on turn 2 and be ready to move on turn 3. Bob can be on that grass 3 from KBH on turn 5 and start road on turn 6. Harry can be on that grass on turn 6 and start road on turn 7. This will complete the road immediately and allow Mildred and FA worker to be added to KBH on turn 7.

George will finish his tasks on turn 2 and be ready to move on turn 3. On turn 5 he can be 3-2 from KBH and on turn 7 he can be added to KBH.

Bokhara will complete horse on turn 2 and start worker. This worker will be ready on turn 5, moved to KBH on turn 6 and added on turn 7. This will result in size 9 KBH with 16 shields per turn on turn 7 and workers Bob and Harry ready to move on turn 8.

Our two slave workers will get to the grass 7-7 from KBH on turn 2 and start mining on turn 3. This mine will be completed on turn 9. Our KBH will have produced 32 shields by that time. Then KBH will start producing 17 shields per turn which will amount to 202 shields in 12 turns. So we have SoZ in 12 turns.


If Mildred cannot move on turn 1, this calculation looks slightly different.

One slave worker starts road on grass 3 from KBH on turn 2. Mildred joins him in road building on turn 4, together with FA worker. This road is completed instantly. On turn 5 Mildred and FA worker start mine, joined by Bob, while slave worker is moved to grass 7-7 from KBH where his colleague has already been mining since turn 3. This mine will be finished on turn 10.

Harry, George and Bokhara worker join Mildred, FA worker and Bob in mining grass 3 from KBH on turn 6. Mine is completed instantly and all workers are free to move on turn 7. Four of them are added to KBH and the wonder is started with 16 shields per turn.

On turn 10 this becomes 17 shields per turn and this sums to 48 + 9*17 = 201 shields, so the wonder is finished in 12 turns again.


In any scenario the wonder is completed on turn 19 from now.

Last edited by Ljube on 12-05-2005 at 22:33

	12-05-2005 22:28									#15
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Here is the current situation for the reference.

Attachment: western continent.jpg
This has been downloaded 38 time(s).

	12-05-2005 22:44									#16
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If we must return slaves on turn 4 or 5, there is still a way to get SoZ in time, but it is going to be a close call.


Slaves contribute by building road on grass 3 from KBH. Then we return them to AM. Then on turn 7 we add 4 workers and move the remaining 2 to grass 7-7 from KBH. We start mine there on turn 8 and finish it on turn 10. That will result in a total of 201 shield, or 200 if the workers can't move on turn 7. I didn't do this calculation, but we have a nice margin for error here so in any case we will have SoZ on turn 19 if we decide to do it.

Last edited by Ljube on 12-05-2005 at 23:36

	12-05-2005 22:56									#17
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all this just to get one wonder, while all other land improvement goes to a standstill.

seems an overly complicated mess to me!

we want settlers asap not waste time replacing workers for this hair brained scheme, this sounds like the doctrine of a one policy party, always a bad thing to my thinking.

No offense to the architects of this but i have to state my opinion as do you yourselves

	12-05-2005 23:29									#18
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I thought you being a builder would appreciate works of this scale, such as wonders.


EDIT: Also, don't forget we will build a settler on turn 21 and another settler on turn 23. Thus we will have two settlers four turns after this wonder. If we tried to build settlers in other cities, we would need from 10 to 15 turns for a single settler. This way we get settlers a couple of turns later and also get a wonder as a bonus.

So, we'll have one settler from Bloodview on turn 7. This one can go to settle dyes. Then on turn 21 we'll have another settler which can settle north of KBH and on turn 23 another settler which can build city either north east of KBH or on that river west of Ta-TU to connect the other dyes.

Last edited by Ljube on 12-05-2005 at 23:44

	12-05-2005 23:56									#19
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As to the use of the workers, that is used to allow the building of the wonder to go as quickly as possible. If we build a wonder in the capital, the other teams will know that we are doing so. We can delay this only slightly by prebuilding a library. Although we can attempt to mislead them as to which wonder we are shooting for, we can not hide the fact that we are building a wonder. Ljube wanted to plan the fastest turn-around time from revealing our wonder-building to having the completed project.

We could build the wonder starting next turn, but we would be tipping our hats to our opponents that we are constructing the thing.

	13-05-2005 00:41									#20
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus all this just to get one wonder, while all other land improvement goes to a standstill. seems an overly complicated mess to me! we want settlers asap not waste time replacing workers for this hair brained scheme, this sounds like the doctrine of a one policy party, always a bad thing to my thinking. No offense to the architects of this but i have to state my opinion as do you yourselves

Chris, while I agree with you on not liking our land improvement coming to a standstill, I would ask you to consider the consequences of one of our rivals obtaining this wonder. From the public forums we can see that it is at least being thought about by some other teams.

When you add the military benefits that this wonder could bring, then it is my belief that we should proceed. The two settlers within 4 turns is very, very good. Over the next 45 turns, isn't our real question: Can we do without workers for 25 turns to be able to have a strong military advantage in 60 turns? My thinking is yes.

	13-05-2005 00:41									#21
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Why do we have to build horses and temple/granary first? Why not change directly over from horse to library this turn?

	13-05-2005 00:45									#22
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Because we didn't change this turn so a horse will be completed next turn.

If we had changed production this turn we would have been able to complete SoZ on turn 13 from now.


However, the horde council has not met and decisions such as this one need to be passed by the council.

	13-05-2005 01:16									#23
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Ah

	13-05-2005 03:37									#24
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While I agree with Chris that the stagnation of our public works and cultivation efforts is not something to take lightly, I also can see the validity of getting this wonder done early and before anyone else!

Not only are the units the SoZ will produce be useful in the further wars of conquest we will undertake, but also very much in line with our nations ethos and character. What could be more Mongolian and Hordelike than a swarm of mean and bloodthirsty horsemen?

	13-05-2005 04:15									#25
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As Sage of the Horde I would conclude we would be better off with SOZ

Think about it fellow Horders we have been and we remain a strength

But what of the spirit and folly that twinkles within the hearts of those whom would take us out?

Perhaps even try sanctioning us?

I believe the SOZ is both practical and a necessary evil to preserve our way of life

Yes we will lose some but we could lose more with out it

as always
I am

Sage of the Horde

	13-05-2005 13:31									#26
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Moves here that are hard to miss. Looks like a good weekend ahead.

	14-05-2005 20:47									#27
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After thinking everything over I have come to the conclusion that we should apply the following tactic to building SoZ.

Rather than aiming at a near constant shield per turn production and starting the wonder when this has been achieved, I think we should start the wonder immediately, on turn 1. It has occurred to me that the very instance of adding workers to KBH will disclose our real intentions. Why would we add workers to KBH if we were not constructing something big?

Further consideration of this problem led me to the conclusion that the only pre-build which could be realistically accepted by other teams as genuine build is granary. So, my suggestion is we start granary on turn 1 and build it at a normal pace of 10 shields per turn to maintain the illusion. On turn 6 this granary will be changed to a wonder and our real intentions revealed.

KBH will have 50 shields accumulated at that time and 150 shields to go. I will do this calculation in greater detail later today, but it seems that from the moment we reveal the wonder building we will need 9 more turns to complete it. Rob and I talked about this too, but didn't analyse all details because of many possibilities and complicated calculations.

	14-05-2005 21:22									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko After thinking everything over I have come to the conclusion that we should apply the following tactic to building SoZ. Rather than aiming at a near constant shield per turn production and starting the wonder when this has been achieved, I think we should start the wonder immediately, on turn 1. It has occurred to me that the very instance of adding workers to KBH will disclose our real intentions. Why would we add workers to KBH if we were not constructing something big? Further consideration of this problem led me to the conclusion that the only pre-build which could be realistically accepted by other teams as genuine build is granary. So, my suggestion is we start granary on turn 1 and build it at a normal pace of 10 shields per turn to maintain the illusion. On turn 6 this granary will be changed to a wonder and our real intentions revealed. KBH will have 50 shields accumulated at that time and 150 shields to go. I will do this calculation in greater detail later today, but it seems that from the moment we reveal the wonder building we will need 9 more turns to complete it. Rob and I talked about this too, but didn't analyse all details because of many possibilities and complicated calculations.

As Sage of the Horde I wish to convey as strong as we are perhaps at least one other member of our counterparts can figure this strategy out.

I would concur we go forth but given the previous path we have taken unless we have simply allowed them to have larger scale thinking than they actually possess, only a moron would not figure out where we are headed..

Sage of the Horde

	14-05-2005 21:40									#29
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Even if we are discovered, it would be hard for anyone to match 13 turns from now...unless they are already working on it of course.

	14-05-2005 21:43									#30
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indeed