14-05-2005 11:19									#1
	A man assualts a woman, she dies of her injuries. Murder? Increase the size of your Attachments

This is a hypthetical. A man assaults a woman, but she does not die immediately. Sometime later, she does die of injuries she sustained in the assault. Is the man guilty of murder or at least of manslaughter?

	14-05-2005 11:27									#2
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manslaughter more likely conviction
murder u havent proved with such a little story

	14-05-2005 11:27									#3
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At least manslaughter, probably murder.

Imran, you've been studying this stuff...what do you say?

	14-05-2005 11:27									#4
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quote: This is a hypthetical.

Given the latest news around the forum, I somehow doubt this.

	14-05-2005 11:31									#5
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Something you would like to share Ned?

	14-05-2005 11:32									#6
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to me u cant prove murder
all we have here is the guy and gal got in fight. she died later of those wounds. Da needs to prove he meant to hurt her and then prove it was intentional

	14-05-2005 11:32									#7
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Define "sometime later".

If it is sortly after, it is murder.

Did she die solely of injuries sustained in the battery or was it something else?

Basically, if she died of injuries related to the assault, even if its been a year or so, it STILL is murder.

	14-05-2005 11:33									#8
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All death from murder is delayed action- why does it make a difference if its a few milliseconds or a couple of weels?

	14-05-2005 11:36									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer Something you would like to share Ned?

Yeah, the news is that Mark Furman is investigating and will publish his findings in a new book due out in a month.

	14-05-2005 11:37									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Define "sometime later". If it is sortly after, it is murder. Did she die solely of injuries sustained in the battery or was it something else? Basically, if she died of injuries related to the assault, even if its been a year or so, it STILL is murder.

That's what I learned in law school as well.

	14-05-2005 11:37									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski to me u cant prove murder all we have here is the guy and gal got in fight. she died later of those wounds. Da needs to prove he meant to hurt her and then prove it was intentional

Yes, we need some of those facts as well... was it in the heat of passion or did he want to hurt her... what happened?

Oh, and I think we all know Ned's intentions here, silly as they are.

	14-05-2005 11:38									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Yeah, the news is that Mark Furman is investigating and will publish his findings in a new book due out in a month.

You'd think after the OJ trial, he'd learn to keep his head low, nah?

	14-05-2005 11:50									#13
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The delay is irrelevant. If the attack was premeditated its murder. If it was a heat of passion thing its manslaugter-- whether seh dies immediately or 6 months later

	14-05-2005 11:54									#14
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Flubber, the delay isn't TOTALLY irrelevent. Old England law had a rule where if the person died after a year and a day of the incident, the proximate cause wasn't satisfied. Most jurisdictions have done away with the rule, but some states have a restriction (Washington state has a three years and a day rule).

	14-05-2005 12:16									#15
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When I worked for the DA's office in New York back in the 80's, that case would definitely been prosecuted as a murder.

	14-05-2005 12:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Flubber, the delay isn't TOTALLY irrelevent. Old England law had a rule where if the person died after a year and a day of the incident, the proximate cause wasn't satisfied. Most jurisdictions have done away with the rule, but some states have a restriction (Washington state has a three years and a day rule).

In Canada, the delay would be totally irrelevant . .. If I understand you correctly, the delay in the US would be irrelevant in most states but there would be some where a person could avoid murder charges if their victim lingered long enough

	14-05-2005 12:35									#17
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Imran:
In France, we have the xharge of "violence resulting in death without lethal intent", which is not the same charge as simplw murder (murder is understood as the intent of killing someone in the first place). Is there no distinction of the sort in the US?

	14-05-2005 12:39									#18
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quote: Sometime later, she does die of injuries she sustained in the assault. Is the man guilty of murder

You need to ask?

	14-05-2005 12:42									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Imran: In France, we have the xharge of "violence resulting in death without lethal intent", which is not the same charge as simplw murder (murder is understood as the intent of killing someone in the first place). Is there no distinction of the sort in the US?

Manslaughter, but that is hard to imagine applying to a woman battered to death by a man.

	14-05-2005 12:43									#20
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Unless she was unusually pugnacious.

	14-05-2005 13:20									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber In Canada, the delay would be totally irrelevant . .. If I understand you correctly, the delay in the US would be irrelevant in most states but there would be some where a person could avoid murder charges if their victim lingered long enough

Yeah, in a few they have a time limit, based on old English common law. I guess the justification is that if after 3 years and a day (in English common law it used to be a year and a day), the original injury wasn't a proximate cause of the death.


Spiffor, nye has it correct. It'd be called manslaughter. But wouldn't be appropriate here.

	14-05-2005 13:28									#22
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Well, Furman investigated the "Kennedy clan" murder, published a book and a 20-year old case was reopened. It resulted in a conviction of a person who was not really a suspect originally.

I have an idea of what Furman is going to say. I suspect his book will be sensational.

Imran, interesting points on the "English" common law linkage between injury and death. I suspect, though, that Florida follows Roman law, having been a former possession of Spain. If this is the case, if it is not in the Florida statutes, the defense does not exist.

Last edited by Ned on 14-05-2005 at 13:38

	14-05-2005 13:32									#23
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Um... Florida is NOT Louisiana. Florida has adopted the English common law. The only state which isn't common law is the aforementioned Louisiana, which follows civil law which the French gave it.

	14-05-2005 13:37									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Um... Florida is NOT Louisiana. Florida has adopted the English common law. The only state which isn't common law is the aforementioned Louisiana, which follows civil law which the French gave it.

Add Kalifornia.

	14-05-2005 13:44									#25
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They had a case like this. A woman was beat into a brain dead state by her abusive husband and her parents wanted her to be taken off of the machines and laid to rest. The husband was told by his attorney that if she died he'd get a much worse sentence so he fights to keep her on the machine.

It was FUBAR.

	14-05-2005 13:48									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Define "sometime later". If it is sortly after, it is murder. Did she die solely of injuries sustained in the battery or was it something else? Basically, if she died of injuries related to the assault, even if its been a year or so, it STILL is murder.

Imran, doesn´t murder have to be pre-meditated?


Edit: Missed Spiffors post...

	14-05-2005 13:48									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Add Kalifornia.

California is ALSO a common law state. It just also has a good number of statutes.

	14-05-2005 13:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg Imran, doesn�t murder have to be pre-meditated?

From the OP, I took it to mean that the guy assaulted her without it being a heat of passion type of thing.

	14-05-2005 15:58									#29
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You miss the most important part Ned, namely intent.

	14-05-2005 16:00									#30
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Here's another one, likely more inflammatory:

If you get a girl drunk with the intent of having sex with her, is it rape?

I vote: yes.