18-05-2005 00:03									#31
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That's not a good comparison, che. This isn't a "bad thing one does because everyone does it", which is wrong. It's "an ok thing that annoys someone we hate so we do it", which is ok.

	18-05-2005 00:04									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Az That's not a good comparison, che. This isn't a "bad thing one does because everyone does it", which is wrong. It's "an ok thing that annoys someone we hate so we do it", which is ok.

I don't hate them.

	18-05-2005 00:07									#33
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I hate them. But I hate everybody, so they aren't special.

	18-05-2005 00:07									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Which Muslim countries put Christians to death?

In Saudi Arabia publically proclaiming a religion other then Islam brings the death penalty.

	18-05-2005 00:07									#35
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You don't hate muslim fundies?

Well, "hate" is too emotional, true. I don't 'hate' muslim fundies, either.

I would rather have them all disappear instantenously, or even better, "leave their wicked ways". but neither seems to be happening, so the only thing left is to fight them.

	18-05-2005 00:08									#36
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Let's give Antarctica to all the religious fundies. And then make them move.

	18-05-2005 00:08									#37
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara So you're okay with us spreading misery, death and destrution?

What Ves is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that he's sick of these backward idiots being so backwards and nobody calling them on their backwardness.

Some dipshit school board in the middle of the 32nd most populated state in the US has a proposal to teach Evilution (yuck-yuck) and the internet is full of outrage at the entirety of America. However, have a religion where the physical, psychological, and spiritual subjegation of women is part and parcel with Gods Law and we're supposed to be "tolerant" and "understanding."

**** 'em. The Islamic world needs to get with the goddamned program and learn it's not 1236ad anymore.

	18-05-2005 00:10									#38
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT have a religion where the physical, psychological, and spiritual subjegation of women is part and parcel with Gods Law and we're supposed to be "tolerant" and "understanding."

I'm not tolerant of that. Though vetlegion did post some really nice pictures yesterday.

	18-05-2005 00:10									#39
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JohnT

Btw, it should be creashun, not evilushn.

	18-05-2005 00:16									#40
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Az gave me a quadruple thumbs up?

:faints:

	18-05-2005 00:34									#41
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Why not go with the more conventional spelling of "Quran"? I don't know this "quoran" you speak of, except that it sounds similar to "quorum".

I was thinking more of "quorn," the vegetarian, erm, "treat."

http://www.quorn.us/

	18-05-2005 00:40									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm not tolerant of that. Though vetlegion did post some really nice pictures yesterday.

The actions of the muslim world are beyond deplorable yet we ignore them.

NO ONE calls them on this, ever.

Why the #### not?

	18-05-2005 00:46									#43
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Because it's not acceptable to discriminate or shower expressions of hate/dislike/distrust on people because of their religion.

Unless they're Christian. Then all is fair game.

	18-05-2005 00:49									#44
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What the hell is our society coming to when an evil, oppresive system of life is not cricitized?

NO ONE WILL TALK ABOUT IT!!

*bangs his head on the wall*

	18-05-2005 00:58									#45
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Remember when 9/11 occurred and all the breathless exhortations that the attacks were a reflection upon the attackers and not their beliefs?

It was bullshit then, it's bullshit now. They attacked us because they were Moslems, not despite it.

	18-05-2005 01:01									#46
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I disagree -- Islam is not the causation in of itself. It's the twisting and distortion of Islam by extreme, fanatical Muslims that is the problem.


Which leads to suppression of women, freedom of religion, and terrorist attacks.

	18-05-2005 01:03									#47
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The Koran is the revealed word of God and changes, even translations, are immoral.

The Koran calls for the subjegation of women to men, the death of the infidel, the hereditary theocracies.

Islam is the causation, MrFun.

And considering how much oppression you claim at the hands of the Christian Right, I don't see you defending Christianity with the sort of "tolerance" you want so desperately to give Moslems.

	18-05-2005 01:04									#48
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So because the Bible calls for slavery, suppression of women, and all the other bad stuff, Christianity in of itself is a causation for that is bad in this world too??

	18-05-2005 01:05									#49
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But we, as a society, are beyond the Bible as THE guidepost (moral, ethically, governmentally) to our civilization.

The Islamic middle east is not beyond the Koran.

Surely you know this.

	18-05-2005 01:07									#50
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT What Ves is saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that he's sick of these backward idiots being so backwards and nobody calling them on their backwardness. Some dipshit school board in the middle of the 32nd most populated state in the US has a proposal to teach Evilution (yuck-yuck) and the internet is full of outrage at the entirety of America. However, have a religion where the physical, psychological, and spiritual subjegation of women is part and parcel with Gods Law and we're supposed to be "tolerant" and "understanding." **** 'em. The Islamic world needs to get with the goddamned program and learn it's not 1236ad anymore.

	18-05-2005 01:08									#51
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Death to Islam! And Christianity! And Judaism! And Budaism! And . . well, Taoism is more a philosophy than a religion.

	18-05-2005 01:11									#52
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Here's a book for ya, MrFun:

What Went Wrong? : The Clash Between Islam and Modernity in the Middle East by Bernard Lewis, one of the West's pre-eminient authorities on Middle Eastern history.

	18-05-2005 01:15									#53
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT The Koran is the revealed word of God and changes, even translations, are immoral.

Same thing holds true for the Bible for many Christian fundies.

quote: The Koran calls for the subjegation of women to men, the death of the infidel, the hereditary theocracies.

The Bible calls for the same thing. So what?

The Koran also preaches tolerance of those who share belief in the same god (jews, Christians). Just like the Bible, there's conflicting information, and different groups bring different interpretations to it due to their existing prejudices and cultural beliefs.

quote: Islam is the causation, MrFun.

Then we can say Christianity is the causation of their fundamental lunatic actions, yes? If not, why the double standard?

quote: And considering how much oppression you claim at the hands of the Christian Right, I don't see you defending Christianity with the sort of "tolerance" you want so desperately to give Moslems.

Mr. Fun IS a Christian. He's professed so many times, so I think that would be itself an indication he gives it greater weight than Islam.

The Christian Right != all of Christianity, so that's a huge fallacy in your argument right there. By the same token, the Islamic fundies != all of Islam. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are tolerant, loving people, just as Christians are.

So, I'd love to see some examples of these evil leftists who trash Christian reactionaries but think Muslim reactionaries are just spiffy. I've never seen anyone who believes this, so I think this is just a typical strawman created by conservatives. Where's the beef?

	18-05-2005 01:19									#54
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quote: Then we can say Christianity is the causation of their fundamental lunatic actions, yes? If not, why the double standard?

I don't have any problem in saying that. No double standard here.

quote: So, I'd love to see some examples of these evil leftists who trash Christian reactionaries but think Muslim reactionaries are just spiffy. I've never seen anyone who believes this, so I think this is just a typical strawman created by conservatives. Where's the beef?

This isn't a Right/Left issue, Boris, but nice try anyway. And you're calling out strawmen here?

	18-05-2005 01:22									#55
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT But we, as a society, are beyond the Bible as THE guidepost (moral, ethically, governmentally) to our civilization. The Islamic middle east is not beyond the Koran. Surely you know this.

Surely you know that the middle east isn't the only place where Islam is a majority religion, yes? And that even in the Middle East, there are varying degrees to which the countries observe strict Islamism, yes? Let's talk about Turkey, post-Suharto Indonesia, Mali, Bangladesh and Jordan

http://islamlib.com/en/page.php?page=article&id=597

Clearly, these Muslims don't see a contradiction between their religion and liberal democratic values. They may not be as interesting and easy to pigeon-hole as terrorists are, but they offer a quite compelling voice.

	18-05-2005 01:24									#56
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I'm with JT here, despite my lame attempts at a troll earlier. Islam is a far more dangerous religion, even if Xianity is more of threat at home.

	18-05-2005 01:31									#57
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT This isn't a Right/Left issue, Boris, but nice try anyway. And you're calling out strawmen here?

Oh sure it isn't. The right has been using that language against the left for years now, as if the left "loves" Islam. Coulter's been spewing crap like that forever. Attempts to disassociate it are naive.

quote: Islam is a far more dangerous religion, even if Xianity is more of threat at home.

That Xianity is "more of a threat" here and is much more relevant to our lives is precisely why the Kansas Board of Ed hearings got so much press. I don't see why it's so inexplicable that the threats more relevant to our culture and lives are more frequently addressed.

That's why arguments like these are often futile because people often utterly lack perspective on the issues. The notion that Christianity is somehow under seige in our country is ludicrous. When was the last time a non-Christian was elected president? Hell, we have a president now who is probably the most overtly religious in decades who was swept in last year on the shoulders of Christian voters. Poor, poor souls!

	18-05-2005 01:52									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Mr. Fun IS a Christian. He's professed so many times, so I think that would be itself an indication he gives it greater weight than Islam. The Christian Right != all of Christianity, so that's a huge fallacy in your argument right there. By the same token, the Islamic fundies != all of Islam. The overwhelming majority of Muslims are tolerant, loving people, just as Christians are. So, I'd love to see some examples of these evil leftists who trash Christian reactionaries but think Muslim reactionaries are just spiffy. I've never seen anyone who believes this, so I think this is just a typical strawman created by conservatives. Where's the beef?

JohnT, I was going to post some more in response to your posts again, but Boris kinda beat me to some good points.

	18-05-2005 02:47									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen I am not a racist and I don't hate muslims but the outrage over one sentence in a newspaper with an unreputable reputation...... It already is a holy war, so yeah, why not? The population of the middle east have been brainwashed by a mix of fundamentalist religion and oppresive leaders who use us as a scape goat for all their troubles.

Actually, most of them haven't. If the majority really got riled and bent out of shape, we'd be in for a scheißsturm of truly amazing scale.

	18-05-2005 02:54									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov That Xianity is "more of a threat" here.

No it's not. You need to go read some more Chick Tracts.