17-05-2005 23:07									#31
	Put an end to popups!

Erm, why so?

	17-05-2005 23:19									#32
	Re: Do you think fleeing from your countries draft is immoral? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen If you are in a country and it goes to war and a draft begins....

one would ask with whom for what and why. but most would just go. it is proven in the past

quote: You are Joe Average Consumer and you are drafted.

*gah*

quote: The purpose of a state is to uphold the rights of the citizens, if you do not want to go to war, are your rights being trampled?

what is the state doing? what rights? drampled? by whom? we are at war! I don't believe it!

quote: Is it immoral to flee the country to avoid a draft you do not agree with?

difficult question and I wouldnt call it immoral anyway. I would call it : is it cowardly

	17-05-2005 23:32									#33
	Suffering from ads?

and there should be a clarification. do you talk about a defensive or offensive war? even though noone would characterise a war as offensive....

	17-05-2005 23:50									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

ive got dual citizenship, im working on tri (dont know if its possible, but im gonna try ha ha.) swiss citizens living in switzerland cannot be extradited without their consent.

of course its not immoral to refuse the draft. you dont owe the country ****. without the people, there would be no country. ask not what you can do for your country, but ask what your country can do for you.

	17-05-2005 23:56									#35
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You country educates you, nurtures you, and protects you. You incur a debt which any moral person would repay and it within the social group's rights to compel repayment.

	18-05-2005 00:09									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

che is very correct.

	18-05-2005 00:09									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

my country does not educate me - california does. it does protect me. what do I give back in return? i live here, pay fees here, consume resources here, make it the largest economy in the world, and all of us combined make is possible to even have a government and a country.

	18-05-2005 00:11									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: what do I give back in return? ...consume resources...

	18-05-2005 00:17									#39
	Increase Your PM Length

I will go to var vhen my Kaiser asks me to.

I know no parties - I know Germans only.

	18-05-2005 00:20									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

deutchland unteralles

	18-05-2005 00:21									#41
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: If the nation is being invaded, it must be examined whether the nation really has a purpose to exist, and whether the nation itself is morally correct enough to defend.

thats true too, remember that our founding document states that if our government becomes oppresive we have a right, a duty, to overthrow it.

thats why ive been stockpiling weapons since Jan 2001.

	18-05-2005 00:24									#42
	Tired of ads?

nice avatar

	18-05-2005 00:24									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Yes, it is immoral to enjoy the comforts of safety but to evade your civic duty.

Nowhere in the same league, but that's why my wife and I never argue out of jury duty. It's a small price to pay for the benefits we receive for living where we do.

	18-05-2005 00:24									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I will go to var vhen my Kaiser asks me to. I know no parties - I know Germans only.

	18-05-2005 00:25									#45
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

paiktis, what are you talking about? I have no avatar.

	18-05-2005 00:32									#46
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You country educates you, nurtures you, and protects you. You incur a debt which any moral person would repay and it within the social group's rights to compel repayment.

That's what taxes are for.

	18-05-2005 00:34									#47
	Get a bigger avatar today!

you know you think these things in greece. or you used to in the past. but still sometime still but far more rearly. for example as late as the 1990's there was a war crisis in the aegean. all the fleet was there, the napalms fixed on turkey, turkey deploying its notorious 4rth aegean army at you. ships opposite facing eachother all targets locked, all armed. dog fights, orders to shoot down planes then revoked at the last second, then reissued... missile systems locked on cities...
and the politicians saying:
greece: our territorial rights are undisputable
and turkey saying: we will break the arm of anyone touching our flag

and you sit there thinking. this is so stupid. both countries wont sustain a war for longer than 15 days. it will be a very high tech war and will last for 15 days maximum. what is there to gain from that? how many lives will be lost and for what?
then you think, if there's a war most likely you will be drafted with so few people as population. and the thing you think about is: this is so stupid, may it end without anyone invading anyone so this doesnt escalate.
but despite the fear (also imagine having a fine life, vastly more rich than the other's side and knowing you have to go risk your life - i think only israel is worse than us in the "civilized" world) and the dead serius intend that a war like this is stupid, some would try to doge but the crushing majority would just go.

	18-05-2005 00:43									#48
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Depends what kind of a war it is. Is it all out defend your countrymen type of thing? then it is immoral to flee. It is the same as leaving your friends back when it would matter the most to stay and fight. Desperate situation, no way out? Doesn't matter. It's the principle of the thing. IF you are not willing to die for anything, then you don't deserve to live IMO. Is it a war where you are drafted to go to another country, you might get killed, and the safety of your fellow countrymen is not a question? This case, I'm not sure. MAYBE I wouldn't say it's IMMORAL. Then again, if you are part of the army, in reserves, and you flee, then it's immoral because you have made a deal. But if you are drafted.. I don't know. Again, depends on the war more, the whole situation, but I would say there might be scenarios where fleeing your country would be a .. a decision, and not SO immoral as in other cases.

I did not make it specific.... I did have a defending your country situation in mind though.

I don't want to die in some sandy place and I really do think we may have a draft in the next 10 years......


Canada is not dependable, no matter what-so it is not a good palce to flee-you don't have a guarantee and fleeing and getting CAUGHT is worse then going to war. If you go to war you MAY die. If you flee and you are caught you WILL be in jail for many, many years.

	18-05-2005 00:57									#49
	Inflate your Upload Space

Were you in favour of the Iraq war?

	18-05-2005 00:57									#50
	Support Apolyton

a bit, yes

*runs*

	18-05-2005 00:59									#51
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If you flee a draft for a war you favour then you're a piece of ****, in my mind.

	18-05-2005 01:06									#52
	Remove this text

As posted above, I don't flee a draft. In fact when my time was on they said they didn't want me. Plus we didn't go to war.

Fleeing from a draft for a war you support

Fleeing from a draft for a war you're against

Being forced to join a war you support

Being forced to join a war you're against

	18-05-2005 01:24									#53
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

supporting a war that you refuse to volonteer for is also immoral because you send off others to do the dirty work for you.

	18-05-2005 02:45									#54
	Put an end to popups!

War is pretty much by definition immoral, as are almost all participants. Most of the soldiers that fought on the allied side during WWII are the only exception that comes to mind. Well, probably the NATO troops that fought in the Kosovo war too, but only the troops and not the political leadership.

Dodging a draft is never immoral though. Not dodging it can in rare circumstances make you a hero, but noone can ever expect anyone to risk their life for someone else's ideals or political motivations.

If another WWII-like situation would arise, I might support the side that has the moral highground (whether that's my own country or its enemy), but not as combatant. I'm a pacifist and reject any form of violence. I could see myself working in a medical facility or something like that though.

	18-05-2005 02:48									#55
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Well, probably the NATO troops that fought in the Kosovo war too, but only the troops and not the political leadership.

No, that was a totally immoral war justified by total demonization of one side and total white-washing of the other.

	18-05-2005 02:50									#56
	Put an end to popups!

I would go a bit further on both sides of the coin. Yes, Oerdin is very right that those who are citizens of the states are given both rights and obligations to the state.

However, any state that required citizens of the state to be available for military service, I would find myself unable to become a citizen. I am a pacifist. I am unwilling to serve in the military regardless of whether the war is considered 'right' or 'just' by many or by few. Therefore during a draft, I would renounce my citizenship, even as I remained within the state.

	18-05-2005 02:59									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No, that was a totally immoral war justified by total demonization of one side and total white-washing of the other.

True, but much of that we (or at least I) only learned about in retrospect. At the time I too believed that war was justified. The NATO soldiers that participated in that war probably couldn't have known better than that they were doing the right thing, and were in fact helping to prevent another genocide of an innocent people. It is was only the political leadership that was immoral.

	18-05-2005 02:59									#58
	BK Inflate your Upload Space

Do you favour any wars?

I may be recalling incorrectly, but you certainly didn't seem opposed to the Iraq war.

	18-05-2005 03:01									#59
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Not immoral whatsoever...I most certainly would not give my life for a conflict I do not agree with...

That you thought was immoral, or that you simply thought was not the best course of action?

	18-05-2005 03:02									#60
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You have no idea what moral relativism is, do you? A moral relativist would view those acts as morally equivalent by definition.

A relativist would say they're not objectively morally different, but may still have a personal opinion.