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Jaguar
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Montgomery County, MD
Apr 2000
time: 00:21
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I'm gonna cut out some of the random tangents, like Ted Kennedy and whatnot, because they aren't relevant to the argument and I sense that very few people are reading our posts in their entirety. I'll
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Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Uh, whites. Are you now just being deliberately dense? I'll reiterate: Byrd was saying that he did not see the word "nigger" as referring to black people specifically. I don't see how you can still be so thick about this.
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He uses nigger as an insult. If I call a straight person a fag for doing something stupid, it is an insult against homosexuals. The same applies here.
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For what reason? You ignored the point that Byrd has never been the type to cave to party pressure, and there would be no reason to do it for the purposes of pandering to his constituents. Besides, the Democratic party never put a press onto its members to support the legislation.
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I can't really give you an exact answer on Byrd's motives, but I don't think he changed his world view on the issue in two years. I think some other factor caused it. As I said, he's an opportunist. Not necessarily a bad quality in a politician, but I think his opportunism is also the main reason for his "change of heart."
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Santorum, certainly...but Kennedy? What legislative horrors has he visited on us? Or will this be another revisit to Chappaquidick? |
Yes.  A family member met him in person as well, and he was a very rude man. But Kennedy is irrelevant here.
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"Touted?" Let's lay off the hyperbole here. All I said was that, lately, it was pretty decent. You really do seem to like to stretch things here... |
You lauded it. 
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That you still harp on this is just a sign of deficit in your overall argument. |
No, it really isn't. I think it is the crux of the matter. He hasn't learned his lesson at all. Saying over and over again that his... slip of the tongue... is irrelevant doesn't make it true.
I'm skipping the Strom Thurmond tangent because it's getting uber-off-topic.
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My perspective is this: Byrd is a hothead prone to speaking before he thinks. He's got a lot of old cultural baggage to shake off, but I think he's moved in the right direction over the years and I see no reason to think he isn't sincere in that movement. He's still quite a bit ignorant on many issues, and like I said, being a politician, he's got a basic level of scuzziness that's inherent. |
He is very ignorant on a lot of issues. He has moved in the right direction, but the rest of the country moved there a hell of a lot faster. He gets no points from me for grudgingly moving towards tolerance.
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When a Senator repudiates his past, apologizes for it and changes his voting behavior to reflect that over time, I take it seriously. I don't think his move against Thomas was based on race, but on politics. Plenty of others opposed his nomination, including a healthy dose of blacks.
Sorry, but I just don't see Byrd as the Great Satan of the Senate who's evil beyond compare. He's a jerk in many ways and an all-too-typical politician. But to say he's still a flaming racist is simply wrong, IMO. I personally don't think the West Virginian voting populace is racist and would tolerate sending a guy they believed to be so back to the senate. |
Really, how has he changed his voting behavior? He filibustered every piece of legislation he could. There aren't any votes in the Senate where one side has a clearly racist position these days. So saying he hasn't voted in a racist manner since the 70s or so doesn't prove anything.
I'm not sure if you've engaged in the DeLay witchhunt, but Byrd OWNS DeLay in legislative Pork production. He is the all-time champion of Pork. That's a big reason why WV continues voting for him. That's a different subject in some respects, but I thought I should bring it up. Byrd is shamelessly corrupt as well.
I think the WV populace likes having a Senior member of the Senate. Let's face it, Byrd is the only important person the state has. So they're willing to overlook the fact that he is an awful, bigoted, corrupt one.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar
He uses nigger as an insult. If I call a straight person a fag for doing something stupid, it is an insult against homosexuals. The same applies here. |
Berz is already on the right track here, but I'll reiterate: Is calling something "gay" indicative the person saying it is an anti-gay bigot?
You made the argument earlier that Byrd wasn't stupid, so you didn't buy that it was just a stupid comment. I hope you see the inherent contradiction here, since your interpretation would rely on him being even stupider.
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I can't really give you an exact answer on Byrd's motives, but I don't think he changed his world view on the issue in two years. |
"I can't give a good reason, but I knows he's evil!" Right.
I've changed my world view on many issues in far less than two years. You seem to be contradicting yourself, at any rate. First his changes of heart are too slow, then they are too fast... if you're going to be outraged, at least be consistent, for pete's sake.
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I think some other factor caused it. As I said, he's an opportunist. Not necessarily a bad quality in a politician, but I think his opportunism is also the main reason for his "change of heart."
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What "opportunity" would Byrd be seizing by reversing his position on the hate crimes bill? Do you think his reelection chances in WV would be hurt if he hadn't? Hardly.
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You lauded it. |
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No, it really isn't. I think it is the crux of the matter. He hasn't learned his lesson at all. Saying over and over again that his... slip of the tongue... is irrelevant doesn't make it true. |
That you think it's the crux of the matter just proves your argument is damned weak. 
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He is very ignorant on a lot of issues. He has moved in the right direction, but the rest of the country moved there a hell of a lot faster. He gets no points from me for grudgingly moving towards tolerance. |
Too slow now! Too fast before! Can't take it anymore, aaaargghh!!!
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Really, how has he changed his voting behavior? He filibustered every piece of legislation he could. There aren't any votes in the Senate where one side has a clearly racist position these days. So saying he hasn't voted in a racist manner since the 70s or so doesn't prove anything. |
So in other words, you won't believe him no matter what he does. That's very understanding and fair-minded of you.
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I'm not sure if you've engaged in the DeLay witchhunt, but Byrd OWNS DeLay in legislative Pork production. He is the all-time champion of Pork. That's a big reason why WV continues voting for him. That's a different subject in some respects, but I thought I should bring it up. Byrd is shamelessly corrupt as well. |
And how many times do I have to say that don't think Byrd is a sterling person? But he's no more guilty of this than most members of Congress.
But "DeLay Witchhunt?" Your non-partisan vaneer comes off pretty quick when you make stupid statements like this.
Yeah, it's a witchhunt to go after a politician who has been blatantly unethical recently, but perfectly okay to call someone "Senator Sheets" or "Senator KKK" based on what he did decades ago. Got it.
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I think the WV populace likes having a Senior member of the Senate. Let's face it, Byrd is the only important person the state has. So they're willing to overlook the fact that he is an awful, bigoted, corrupt one. |
Good to know you have such a low opinion of West Virginians. 
Do you honestly think they know he's an unrepentant racist and just overlook it?
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You're going with the "Supplemental Troll Analogy" strategy, while I go for the "Heavy Artillery" strategy. |
Do you and Kuci jerk each other off as well in person, I wonder?
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19-05-2005 10:57
. Point being.... what's the point?
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