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mrmitchell
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"Nigger" is totally acceptable as "a lack of character", amongst my compadres.
If Mr. Byrd meant "white black people" he'd have been offensive, but he meant "white people with a lack of character".
It's your own language. Don't try to deny it. Byrd is actually trying to make a good point, and people trash him because he uses a word. Talk about sidestepping the real discussion.
EDIT: And MtG has another point. People in WV don't care. What matters is Senator Byrd is probably the most profitable thing their state has ever produced.
Last edited by mrmitchell on 20-05-2005 at 02:48
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mrmitchell
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Jaguar that's damn right. You can't just look at the specific letter of what someone says. Intent is the only real thing that matters.
Skywaler that's your opinion. I have no beef with Byrd personally.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar
I care not for your convoluted rationalizations. If you use the word "nigger" as an insult, you are demeaning Black people. There is no other way around it.
And lay off the personal attacks. I have the maturity to limit mine to public figures who aren't on this site. |
The very fact he said "white nigger" shows why you are wrong. Its very simple.
As for "personal attacks", yes, the horrors of the word "thick". Its not an attack, its simple observation, because the point is not particularly difficult. That you are unwilling to accept the direct connection in context being used by Chris Rock and Byrd is based purely on either a far to literal mind, or simple bias (asgainst, Byrd, of Comedy, or both).
The same would apply to Redneck. Had Byrd made a comment about black rednecks, would that have been an anti-black slur, or an anti-white slur??
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar
Here is a summary of the opposition's arguments.
1. I take the "white nigger" remark out of context. Even though I quoted the question and the entire response, that isn't enough. |
You didn't quote the question Tony Snow asked in the OP. As for the answer, what Byrd was saying is that he thought most racism had died out and people spoke too much about race. While I disagree with the premise, it is a common conservative position bandied about in this very forum commonly (specially given the fact there are very few blacks who post here). But the "white nigger" comment is very obviously stating there are whites who behave in a way for which a black person would be callled nigger. Hence, white nigger.
quote:
2. I should not be allowed to use any information on Byrd's past in my arguments. Because putting things in context is bad. |
No, the statement is that you fail to contextualize things when you assume just because someone said X 40 years ago, they must still believe it. That is obviously logically wrong.
quote:
3. "Nigger", an offensive word which "specifically means a black person," can be used in a nonoffensive way that has nothing to do with black people. |
Nigger is an insult to blacks in one of its meanings. But given its resurgence and use within the black community itself (you don;t see other groups appropriating words like spick, dago, pollack, or gook), obviously it has come to have another meaning beyond simply just a way to denigrate everyone from that race.
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Jaguar
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Montgomery County, MD
Apr 2000
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
The very fact he said "white nigger" shows why you are wrong. Its very simple.
As for "personal attacks", yes, the horrors of the word "thick". Its not an attack, its simple observation, because the point is not particularly difficult. That you are unwilling to accept the direct connection in context being used by Chris Rock and Byrd is based purely on either a far to literal mind, or simple bias (asgainst, Byrd, of Comedy, or both).
The same would apply to Redneck. Had Byrd made a comment about black rednecks, would that have been an anti-black slur, or an anti-white slur?? |
GePap, your analogies, quite frankly, are as abysmal as your spelling.
Chris Rock and Robert Byrd have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Chris Rock is a young Black comic who uses edgy material about race in a comedy routine.
Robert Byrd is an old White guy who is too senile to remember to surpress racist language he picked up back when it was fashionable.
And you're comparing "redneck" to "nigger"? The two words aren't even in the same league when it comes to offensiveness.
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mrmitchell
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quote:
Reading through this thread provides a perfect illustration of mindless partisanship. Some of you guys would defend just about anyone if only they were Democrat. |
I would be defending Byrd if he was a Republican. You are ridiculous.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaguar
GePap, your analogies, quite frankly, are as abysmal as your spelling.[QUOTE]
Frankly, your inablity to understand is matched only by your inability to know what an analogy is, or when one is being made.
quote:
Chris Rock and Robert Byrd have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Chris Rock is a young Black comic who uses edgy material about race in a comedy routine.
Robert Byrd is an old White guy who is too senile to remember to surpress racist language he picked up back when it was fashionable. |
 I have to laugh at the depths of your misunderstanding (as opposed to Winston's tired and predicatble politically hackery).
The issue is not whether Chris Rock as a person and Robert Byrd as a person have anything to do in common. It is based on an attempt to make you understand a context in which the word nigger, specially if he applied it to whites, does not mean simply a pejorative term for black, but a type of person, and this can be best illustrated to the likes of yourself by pointing to the Chris Rock routine, because the understanding of the world in both instances is similar. That you are unwilling or incapable of seing this oh so simple point is rather sad.
In this context, nigger applies to a person who is actively ignorant, shallow, violent, rude, so forth.
[QUOTE]
And you're comparing "redneck" to "nigger"? The two words aren't even in the same league when it comes to offensiveness. |
The offensiveness of each of those terms is based on the context with wchih you use them, and the perceptions of the audience. There is no set scale of offensivenes. Go to some small bar in the south and start calling everyone there rednecks and compare the reaction you get to that of going to a hip hop club and calling people there today "my nigger". I would wager that while neither would lead to pleasant consequences, the southern attempt would be much worse for your health.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Nigger is an insult to blacks in one of its meanings. But given its resurgence and use within the black community itself (you don;t see other groups appropriating words like spick, dago, pollack, or gook), obviously it has come to have another meaning beyond simply just a way to denigrate everyone from that race. |
Pollack, IIUC, is simply the Polish word for a Pole. Which is why in Hamlet its not an insulting use.
Yid is simply the Yiddish word for Jew. When used by a Jew, particularly one with a Yiddish background, its not derogatory. When used by a gentile, it IS derogatory.
IIUC it has come to be used within the black community in large part precisely because the NON-RACIST white community, and integrationast black community, has made it such a taboo, and so it has gained considerable shock value. Those elements in the black community that dont want to be "nice" but want to shock adopted it. I hardly think this was intended to make it an acceptable word in the white community again.
A good analogy would be the use of the word "queer" by radical elements in the gay community, though there it is more overtly political.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Pollack, IIUC, is simply the Polish word for a Pole. Which is why in Hamlet its not an insulting use.
Yid is simply the Yiddish word for Jew. When used by a Jew, particularly one with a Yiddish background, its not derogatory. When used by a gentile, it IS derogatory.
IIUC it has come to be used within the black community in large part precisely because the NON-RACIST white community, and integrationast black community, has made it such a taboo, and so it has gained considerable shock value. Those elements in the black community that dont want to be "nice" but want to shock adopted it. I hardly think this was intended to make it an acceptable word in the white community again.
A good analogy would be the use of the word "queer" by radical elements in the gay community, though there it is more overtly political.
In Israel a few years back, some Jews of Afro-aisian origin adopted the word "schvartza" (black, in Yiddish) implicitly throwing back in the faces of the Ashkenazim the fact that many of them used a derogatory term for the dark jews.
Adoption of a derogatory name by a minority can be a an attempt to remind the majority of its racism, and to deny a purported reconciliation.
The same strategy can be used by a majority group, to point out the racism/bigotry of a minority. A little googling will show that antisemites love words like 'goy' "shegitz" , etc since they can be used to document alleged anti-gentile bigotry by Jews, which is a matter some of these folks are obsessed with. It is for this reason that i always refer to a certain Poly Commie from Florida as "Guev" (though he has explained that his nick derives from a personal story that is unrelated to the antisemitic agenda outlined above)
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19-05-2005 22:24
, not to mention a bunch of other Federally funded projects just a tad disproportionate to the geopraphic size and population of WV), the whole state would become one huge sinkhole with a GDP rivalling that of say... Haiti or Burkina Faso.
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