Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Civilization IV > Civ4-General > Censorship on terrorism
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!
22.Sep: BLUE IS OCEAN, GREEN IS GRASS
22.Sep: SMAC-LIKE UN COUNCIL CONFIRMED
21.Sep: GERMAN `ANONYMOUS` LAUNCHES

bottom of page
  
Are you in favour of the implementation of terrorism in civ 4 ? (Time out:0 days after 19-05-2005, 23:12)
I do not favour the implementation of terrorism in Civ 4
I am in favour of the implementation of terrorism in Civ 4
I don't have any opinion about this nevertheless extremely relevant issue
Cucumber or banana or cucumnana
View Results [Edit Poll (moderators only)]
Author
Thread   
Pages (5): [ 1   2   3   4     >> ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
M. le Comte is offline M. le Comte
Warlord
Last Aristocrat in Paris
Aug 2001
time: 06:21
  Old Post 19-05-2005 23:09
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Censorship on terrorism Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

In the real world, I DO NOT support Bin Laden. By the way, in the real life, I do not think States should wage war as soon as they want to extend their borders, I do not favor hereditarian dictorships, I do not support neither the siege of cities nor the starvation of people who are - culturally speaking - strangers to my civilization, I even don't believe in the irreductable character of civilizations (I think Huntington is a dangerous perenialist non-thinker who might well be responsible for the contemporary international disorder as his theory is self-realizing...).

But since I can already wage war when I want in Civ, since I can already manipulate poor foreign diplomats in Civ, since I can already, in Civ, make people die under my bloody iron swords or my nuclear ICBMs, I ask for the right, as well,

to implement terrorist devices in my opponents' cities

'cause that'll be fun !

GAZ082 is offline GAZ082
Warlord
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Jul 2004
time: 02:21
  Old Post 19-05-2005 23:33
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Get a bigger avatar today!

I dont care. Terrorism is kinda microwar, and is out the scope of CIV where the armies rule.

Modo44 is offline Modo44
Emperor
in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:21
  Old Post 19-05-2005 23:40 Visit Modo44's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

Well, terrotism on its own is a bit small for the scope of Civ. But I do think that general guerilla activity should be implemented somehow.

This was buggy in Civ3, as the AI could not handle units with Hidden Nationality well. Units like Guerilla would be very fun to play with if they had this flag. Even more so if there was an expensive version that could do paradrops. If you want to call them terrorists, be my guest. Special Forces is another name, used by the "good" guys...

As to bombing attacks and more target-related activity, I prefer the open way of sending a couple of Cruise Missiles over. Come to think of it, if you would give missiles the ability to target specific buildings and/or units, the effect would be just as much terror as from terrorists. Love the double "r".

Gen. Atkinson is offline Gen. Atkinson
Chieftain
of the Allied States of Celtatia
May 2005
time: 05:21
  Old Post 19-05-2005 23:45 Visit Gen. Atkinson's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I wholeheartedly support the use of terrorist weapons in Civ. Wiping out cities with nukes, or eco-terrorists burning down enemy nuclear plants and factories.
And I would like to poison my enemy's water supply again, maybe cause some enemy units defect to my side.
I would also like a Brazilian Super Model, but life isn't like that.

curtsibling is offline curtsibling
King
of the Kill!
May 2002
time: 05:21
  Old Post 19-05-2005 23:46 Visit curtsibling's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

A game for mass consumption cannot delve too deeply into issues where it might scare off potential players or gain bad press. Terrorism can be abstracted into general warfare.

Sneaking a unit into enemy territory and pillaging, could be seen as a terror attack...The game just doesn't call it as such.

Kassiopeia is offline Kassiopeia
Emperor
Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 02:30 Visit Kassiopeia's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

A game company voluntarily not having something controversial in their games is not censorship. I don't think I'm going to miss the "terrorist" options too much, but I think it's a symptom of our times and I certainly don't like it.

Besides, I think a hijacking of terms has happened here - because these actions are being labeled "terrorist", they are not in the game. If they were "indirect warfare" or "unconventional methods", nobody would bat an eyelid.

Trifna is offline Trifna
King
of anchovies
Jul 2001
time: 13:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 03:08
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

Or I could say that I am in favour of implementing terrorism since it's part of real stuff which could have some impacts as a part of intelligence (or else);

Or I could say that it should not be implemented that fast for all the trouble in can bring.

Or I can say like Kassiopeia that there could be some "indirect warfare" or (automatic civil) "guerrillas" implemented. "Terrorism" is only the last brand name taken by a long bunch of tentatives to wreck havoc in a way or another; it's just that recent developments made of this type of warfare a special issue. So I'll go for unconventional banana throwing.

Mace is offline Mace
Warlord
Trade Empire of the Carthaginians
Nov 2003
time: 23:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 03:41
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think terrorism should be part of Civ4...it's part of the real world, after all. If it's dropped for PC reasons...that's bad bad bad. Spineless and unrealistic.

GAZ082 is offline GAZ082
Warlord
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Jul 2004
time: 02:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 04:32
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Partisans and stuff like that might be ok, in fact, they would rock!

playshogi is offline playshogi
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 00:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 10:53
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Blow up building? ---- OUT
Poison water supply? ------ OUT
Raze size 24 city? ---- IN

M. le Comte is offline M. le Comte
Warlord
Last Aristocrat in Paris
Aug 2001
time: 06:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 13:02
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

quote:
Originally posted by playshogi
Blow up building? ---- OUT
Poison water supply? ------ OUT
Raze size 24 city? ---- IN


That's the point ! What an enormous hypocrisis !

CyberShy is offline CyberShy

Emperor
Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 13:17
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote:
Originally posted by Mace
I think terrorism should be part of Civ4...it's part of the real world, after all. If it's dropped for PC reasons...that's bad bad bad. Spineless and unrealistic.


c'mon, there are a billion real-world things not in the game!

Nikolai is offline Nikolai
Emperor
Bergen, Norway
Oct 2000
time: 06:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 14:14
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No ingame terrorism is no big deal. It's not important for the gameplay. Now, of course, it would be nice for realism, but again, not important since much of reality is not included. And it would possibly be hurting for Firaxis' PR, which I understand is a problem, although it's sad it's how it's like.

curtsibling is offline curtsibling
King
of the Kill!
May 2002
time: 05:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 14:50 Visit curtsibling's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by Mace
I think terrorism should be part of Civ4...it's part of the real world, after all. If it's dropped for PC reasons...that's bad bad bad. Spineless and unrealistic.


Leaders living for 6000 years is not in the real world, neither is an Islamic America.

We will just have to accept that this is a fun/megalomania game, and not a historical document.

vovan is offline vovan
Emperor

Oct 2001
time: 06:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 15:36
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

I don't know I think terrorism *could* play a major role in some people's tactics. Imagine: you are planning to attack a size 24 city. Before you go in, you send on of your spies and destroy a happiness building (suicide bombing? Doesn't have to be, could just call it undermining the structure or something). People riot, and the city is rendered unable to produce it's own defenses.

Modo44 is offline Modo44
Emperor
in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 16:40 Visit Modo44's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

quote:
Originally posted by vovan
I don't know I think terrorism *could* play a major role in some people's tactics. Imagine: you are planning to attack a size 24 city. Before you go in, you send on of your spies and destroy a happiness building (suicide bombing? Doesn't have to be, could just call it undermining the structure or something). People riot, and the city is rendered unable to produce it's own defenses.

There was an option for Probes in SMAC: Incite Drone Riots. Guess what it did...

But the main problem with such units is that they are terribly easy to spot, as opposed to actual terrorists/special forces. So, except if armed with a long-range Paradrop ability, they would be pretty useless, except in an all-out war.

curtsibling is offline curtsibling
King
of the Kill!
May 2002
time: 05:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 16:46 Visit curtsibling's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

I think the problem stems from people's misconceptions of what a 'terrorist' is.

The guerrillas in CIV3 could be termed 'terror' units if you are fighting them.

In CIV3 bombing a defenceless city with heavy aircraft could be a 'terror tactic.'

'Terror' is not merely restricted to CNN-generated Osama phantom menaces.

Mace is offline Mace
Warlord
Trade Empire of the Carthaginians
Nov 2003
time: 23:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 20:35
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy


c'mon, there are a billion real-world things not in the game!


Well of course, but this particular real world thing *was* in Civ1 and Civ2...

Why take it out?

wrylachlan is offline wrylachlan
Prince

Apr 2002
time: 05:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 22:56
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

Personally I have no desire to see Terrorism implemented, mainly because on the scale we're talking about individual acts of terrorism are insignificant, and the overall effects of terrorism are generally modelled by citizen unhappiness, culture, etc.

M. le Comte is offline M. le Comte
Warlord
Last Aristocrat in Paris
Aug 2001
time: 06:21
  Old Post 20-05-2005 23:51
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote:
Originally posted by wrylachlan
Personally I have no desire to see Terrorism implemented, mainly because on the scale we're talking about individual acts of terrorism are insignificant, and the overall effects of terrorism are generally modelled by citizen unhappiness, culture, etc.


That's right. Nothing happened on the world scale on the 9/11.

Ninot is offline Ninot
King
Centre Bell
Nov 2001
time: 00:21
  Old Post 21-05-2005 01:07
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

the problem I see with implementing terrorism is that it would be futile in a way.

State sponsored terrorism does alot of damage world wide, but nothing huge ala 9/11, right?

and in the game, why would you hire a suicide bomber to kill 20 people in a bus somewhere (which cant be representable at all), when you could declare war and drop a bomb and take out the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of lives?

if a country commited something like 9/11, it would be an act of war, obviously. And personally, I rather advance my troops over a border and bomb that city than waste an aircraft like that.

There is little point for the game to have independant terrorists like Al Qaeda, and it would be futile for it to have state sponsored terrorism, IMHO.

vovan is offline vovan
Emperor

Oct 2001
time: 06:21
  Old Post 21-05-2005 01:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Ninot
and in the game, why would you hire a suicide bomber to kill 20 people in a bus somewhere (which cant be representable at all), when you could declare war and drop a bomb and take out the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of lives?


But you could poison the water supply to take the city down one pop, which might knock the city size down one category and thus decrease the defensive bonuses the troops in it get. (If such concepts as city defense bonuses and different city size categories still exist, of course.)

Then again, that'd be most useful in an all out war, and there, bombarding the city would do the trick just as well.

TechWins is offline TechWins
King
Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:21
  Old Post 21-05-2005 01:15
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

From a business standpoint I can understand Firaxis not wishing to upset the absurdly hypocritical American public at large.

From an 'ethical' standpoint Firaxis is being hypocritical, as aforementioned examples have been provided by others, but it is only fitting considering they too fall under the category of the American public at large.

From a gameplay standpoint I am not overly bothered by terrorism not being included; it's not as if it's a make or break gameplay issue.

CyberShy is offline CyberShy

Emperor
Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:21
  Old Post 21-05-2005 01:49
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote:
Originally posted by Mace


Well of course, but this particular real world thing *was* in Civ1 and Civ2...

Why take it out?


because it was never fun at all, it hardly had any impact as well. Besides that, using bombers in cIIIv you could do basicly the same.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
  Old Post 21-05-2005 02:35
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Got spare money?

quote:
Originally posted by Ninot
the problem I see with implementing terrorism is that it would be futile in a way.

State sponsored terrorism does alot of damage world wide, but nothing huge ala 9/11, right?


You don´t read a lot of Chomsky, do you?

M. le Comte is offline M. le Comte
Warlord
Last Aristocrat in Paris
Aug 2001
time: 06:21
  Old Post 21-05-2005 02:36
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by Ninot

and in the game, why would you hire a suicide bomber to kill 20 people in a bus somewhere (which cant be representable at all), when you could declare war and drop a bomb and take out the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of lives?

if a country commited something like 9/11, it would be an act of war, obviously. And personally, I rather advance my troops over a border and bomb that city than waste an aircraft like that.

There is little point for the game to have independant terrorists like Al Qaeda, and it would be futile for it to have state sponsored terrorism, IMHO.


I don't agree with you.

Didn't Taliban Afghanistan use to sponsor Al Qaeda (before being crushed by the coalition) ?
French partisans did commit terrorist attacks against the occupying Wehrmacht during WW2. It is said that it helped a bit the Allied.
And what about the (military) support Contras gained from the United States when they were fighting the Nicaraguan Govt ? Nothing of importance ?
And Great Britain, which organised terrorism against German basis in Arabia (Lawrence and his fedaykins).
And Khadafi and his hobby of destroying commercial flights...
And not to seem too partial, France bombing Tunisian innocents village during the Algerian independance.
And because I am French, I'll recall the murder of president Allende of Chile planned, maybe hmm, by the CIA ? The consequence wasn't war.

I mean it. Terrorism has, and has ever had, a big impact on inter-STATE relationships. Inside or outside war periods.

Dr Zoidberg is offline Dr Zoidberg

King
Communist Party of Apolyton
Jan 2002
time: 06:21
  Old Post 21-05-2005 02:40
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

And I want to be able to strike a devastating blow at the heart of the evil empire, thus spreading fear and mistrust among its population and financial market

Mace is offline Mace
Warlord
Trade Empire of the Carthaginians
Nov 2003
time: 23:21
  Old Post 21-05-2005 03:20
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy


because it was never fun at all, it hardly had any impact as well. Besides that, using bombers in cIIIv you could do basicly the same.


That is debateable...but I'll not go there.

If Firaxis removes terrorism-type espionage missions because of game balance issues or overcomplication, that's fine. But if Firaxis removes it because of political correctness...that would be silly.

Ninot is offline Ninot
King
Centre Bell
Nov 2001
time: 00:21
  Old Post 21-05-2005 05:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Originally posted by M. le Comte


I don't agree with you.

Didn't Taliban Afghanistan use to sponsor Al Qaeda (before being crushed by the coalition) ?
French partisans did commit terrorist attacks against the occupying Wehrmacht during WW2. It is said that it helped a bit the Allied.
And what about the (military) support Contras gained from the United States when they were fighting the Nicaraguan Govt ? Nothing of importance ?
And Great Britain, which organised terrorism against German basis in Arabia (Lawrence and his fedaykins).
And Khadafi and his hobby of destroying commercial flights...
And not to seem too partial, France bombing Tunisian innocents village during the Algerian independance.
And because I am French, I'll recall the murder of president Allende of Chile planned, maybe hmm, by the CIA ? The consequence wasn't war.

I mean it. Terrorism has, and has ever had, a big impact on inter-STATE relationships. Inside or outside war periods.


You make many great points.

Honestly, I'd like to have terrorism in the game just because I love a game that gives all the possibilities.

but...

I myself find it hard to imagine how the game could put in terrorism and make it an efficient and viable option for the player or for the AI.

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
Prince
Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:21
  Old Post 21-05-2005 06:13
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Why would want to blow a schoolbus when you can level an entire city with bombers?

 
Pages (5): [ 1   2   3   4     >> ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:21.
Apolyton Time is 00:21.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0711 seconds (92.08% PHP - 7.92% MySQL) with 33 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net