20-05-2005 00:34									#1
	PTWDG AAR (After Action Review) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I figure we've ALL been looking forward to an AAR (After Action Review for you civilians, where military types review the good, bad, and the what the f after a military action)

Not sure if the game is over but from the sounds of it, it almost is.

Any discussion of the game?

Icebreakers:

1) ND and GoW were allied for a shared victory from almost the beginning of the game.

2) Roleplay has to have the WORST diplomacy of strategic history.

Continue with your own comments.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 21-05-2005 at 06:14

	20-05-2005 01:08									#2
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No, it wasn't a shared victory, it was a "we'll have a big war between us at the end" alliance.

At least, as it was presented way back when.

And from my perspective:

Diplomacy with GS was far worse than with RP. It was practically like pulling teeth. At least at the beginning. I think Theseus and MZ worked well together. After I believe GS relaxed some of their wierd philosophies of waiting 2 weeks to decide anything.

	20-05-2005 02:50									#3
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The GoW and ND alliance to win the game was signed in 1030 AD as the buildup to the Lego War began.

We informally contemplated such a thing one more than one occasion in the past but never really did anything about it. When the prospect of sending 90% of our army to fight overseas arose, we knew we had to do something to ensure that ND did not backstab us, hence the deal was signed.

The deal also has a lot to do with Darekill taking over the reigns of ND after Zayxus' term. While Zayxus was leader of ND, our relations were good but very paranoid. In fact, ND spent alot of the post-Bobian war time building up forces and even on one occasion held the turn when they saw a huge stack of GoW units near Killdaria.

Darekill was far more open to the idea of a shared victory, and the agreement was signed without much trouble.

	20-05-2005 02:59									#4
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And GS does not stand for "generally sucks" and if that was a troll, it was in very poor taste.

GS diplomacy up until the Bobian War was, IMHO, quite deficient. We felt like we were dealing with a team which looked at the game as if they were playing a SP game rather than looking at the far more complex human strategies of MP. After the war a lot of the leadership changed and things became different, GS became more open and cordial and in general, I can say they were a pleasure to deal with, particularly Cort Haus and DeepO with which I had 90% of my diplomatic dealings with.

A big to both of them.

As I mentioned in the GoN thread, I was very surprised why GS never openly courted GoW to establish an alliance against ND when it became obvious that ND was turning into a massive powerhouse even greater than Lego. I think part of GS's success in this game was that their aggressiveness more than compensated their territorial limitations. They were not afraid to do things that looked far beyond the means of what they were capable of (like attack Lego). The post-Lego War cautiousness frankly astounded me, particularly in regards to said alliance with us, as well as being so hesitant to colonize the Uranium in Lego which was clearly on their side.

	20-05-2005 03:02									#5
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Regarding RP, suffice to say that when this game started we thought ND was going to be our prime target since they were closest and were expanding rapidly.

Then came the "Writing" incident (I have no clue what that was) and the scounting incident when RP demanded that we stop scounting land that they claimed. That pissed GoW off so much (particularly since they never restricted themselves) that we decided to ally with ND instead. Plans to destroy RP were drawn up even before I joined GoW and the rest is history.

Moral of the story: piss someone off, they'll get revenge.

	20-05-2005 06:51									#6
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Games not over yet.

I dont trust GS or the RNG.
Next turn, all our uranium will probably pop over to their territory.

	20-05-2005 07:01									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Then came the "Writing" incident (I have no clue what that was) and the scounting incident when RP demanded that we stop scounting land that they claimed. That pissed GoW off so much (particularly since they never restricted themselves) that we decided to ally with ND instead. Plans to destroy RP were drawn up even before I joined GoW and the rest is history. Moral of the story: piss someone off, they'll get revenge.

"Writing incidient" was that RP wouldnt trade it to us until our scouting warrior was well out of their claimed (unpopulated) territory.
That left GoW with nothing to study for 5-6 turns.

Plus there was confusion about if we even had a deal or not.

	20-05-2005 11:20									#8
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Talk about a decision that cost them the game...

I seriously don't understand why a team would "claim" land that they didn't possess and have the nerve of threatening any other nation that scouted it. I agree that has to be one of the most stupid decisions in the history of demogamedom. Probably the worst decision in the story of this game at least.

	20-05-2005 11:22									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Games not over yet. I dont trust GS or the RNG. Next turn, all our uranium will probably pop over to their territory.

Big deal, we have enough Nukes in reserve to last us a lifetime

	20-05-2005 11:54									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Talk about a decision that cost them the game... I seriously don't understand why a team would "claim" land that they didn't possess and have the nerve of threatening any other nation that scouted it. I agree that has to be one of the most stupid decisions in the history of demogamedom. Probably the worst decision in the story of this game at least.

I would be the last to defend RP's diplomatic style, but it's only the demogames we have played that taught us demands and claims of this sort inevitably lead to serious repercussions (or generally, that "bullies" are the first to go). Saying RP's decision was stupid is too harsh. It was wrong and they paid for it. We all learnt from what happened to RP and why.

I can imagine that in a regular MP (non-demo) game, I could make such claims against my scouting neighbour and even get away with it. They are not "impossible to justify" from my PoV - any invader not knowing lands he is attacking is at a disadvantage. RP knew or assumed those lands would eventually be settled by Spanish cities and tried to keep their geography secret. It turned out to be a futile effort that cost them the game. But's let's be fair and keep in mind we are speaking quite some hindsight here.

	20-05-2005 11:59									#11
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I agree vond.

Part of what I find amazing in this game compared to all others is that all of us started with no friggin clue on what was the best strategy to pursue, how to best deal with other civs, etc. In short, we were all n00bs, trying to win but nobody with any clue on exactly how to.

Still, there's one piece of logic that I cling to not only in demogames but in real life. Don't demand of others what you would not be capable of doing yourself. I'm sure RP would have liked to have the liberty of scouting all through Bob (and from the screenshots i've seen, they apparently did) so it takes a lot of nerve to demand to another team what you would not be willing to give up yourself. I guess that's what pissed my team off so much, not just the fact they didn't want us to explore their land, but the fact that they didn't want that, yet considered it their right to explore ours. Assuming such a strategy would not generate grudges and repercussions isn't wrong, it's stupid.

	20-05-2005 18:38									#12
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Hi everybody

One point of my short history is not mentioned now
the war of nd against rp and the fact nd claims the uran in legoland!
about these both facts we had big discussions with mz and the just told us that would mean war and gow´s army is not strong enough in legoland to protect us. But we thought it is the right time to show the world how strong nd has become.

	20-05-2005 20:57									#13
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Please... can we do the AAR after the action?

	21-05-2005 14:27									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Darekill Please... can we do the AAR after the action?

DeepO

	31-05-2005 06:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I agree vond. Part of what I find amazing in this game compared to all others is that all of us started with no friggin clue on what was the best strategy to pursue, how to best deal with other civs, etc. In short, we were all n00bs, trying to win but nobody with any clue on exactly how to.

Vox Controli would agree with that last statement.

	06-06-2005 09:59									#16
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Well now that this is "unofficially" over (still ahve to wait about 9 turns before it's official), here are GoW's end-of-game stats (1380).

Imperial Army

Tanks - 70
Mech Inf - 80
Marines - 23
Artillery - 12
Cavalry - 10
Riders - 2
Army - 1

Imperial Navy

Carriers - 9
Battleships - 3
Destroyers - 23
Nuclear Subs - 9
Submarines - 2
Transports - 33

Imperial Air Force

Bombers - 35 (27 on carriers, 8 on land)
Jet Fighters - 9 (all on carriers)

Imperial Missile Command

Tactical Nukes - 7
Cruise Missiles - 3


Our F11 screen (this is UNMOBILIZED)

Attachment: gow - 1380 ad - f11.jpg
This has been downloaded 62 time(s).

	06-06-2005 10:08									#17
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Lego still wins on points!

	06-06-2005 10:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Lego still wins on points!

Yep you do, but I'm not sure if that will hold by the time the next UN vote is made (still, qute a damn achievement if you ask me).

More stats:

Pixel Counts

Histograph

1 - GoW - 238
2 - ND - 228
3 - Vox - 116

Power

1 - GoW - 248
2 - ND - 222
3 - Vox - 111

Culture

1 - GoW - 158
2 - ND - 129
3 - Vox - 100

Final Score

1 - Legoland - 1217
2 - Neu Demogyptica - 1182
3 - Glory of War - 1168
4 - Gathering Storm - 1043
5 - Vox Controli - 417
6 - Roleplay - 340
7 - Lux Invicta - 17

	06-06-2005 10:35									#19
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Literacy #1

	06-06-2005 18:59									#20
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Culture #1

	06-06-2005 19:11									#21
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And both those prove MZ has failed as a Warmonger leader.

	06-06-2005 19:13									#22
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What did ND do to the city names?

	06-06-2005 20:21									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Krill What did ND do to the city names?

i gave them new names, Yellow plague -> Anagra

1385ad F11 of ND unmobilized:
I changed the taxes this turn from 50|0|50 to 40|50|10

Military:
28 Worker
20 Marine
13 Inf
96 Tank
73 MechInf
1 Ari (hm, my fault last turn)
1 Cruise Missle
10 Tactical Nukes
19 Transporter
2 Carrier
9 Destroyer
4 Battleship
11 Nuc Subs
18 Bomber
15 Jet Fighter (most of them for spying)

in mobilization we had ten cities with 100 shields/turn, but no really productive coast-city, only Arnablanca with more than 50 shields/turn

edit: The image that you have attached is too big. Please make it no bigger than 800 x 0.

800 x 0 ?

	06-06-2005 20:31									#24
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Would it be possible to post F1 screens, so we can see how much GNP is corrupted? I'd post the screens for GS, apart from the fact that everything reads Zero.

	06-06-2005 20:37									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Krill Would it be possible to post F1 screens, so we can see how much GNP is corrupted?

Like that?
Its from 1380ad.

	06-06-2005 20:39									#26
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Thanks

	06-06-2005 21:06									#27
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Here's our F1 screen from 1380 AD while mobilized

Under mobilization our total production was 1417spt and productivity 2892. Unlike ND, we only had 6 100spt cities, though in practice Trafalgar was another since we had a constant stream of Explorers to disband there each turn.

Attachment: gow f1.jpg
This has been downloaded 51 time(s).

	06-06-2005 21:35									#28
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F1, 1345 AD (Before the Nuking, but some tiles around Monsoon are not RR'ed, or even roaded)

This is Unmobilised, BTW:

Attachment: 1345 ad, f1.jpg
This has been downloaded 49 time(s).

	06-06-2005 21:55									#29
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And Mobilised...

Attachment: 1345 ad, f1, mob.jpg
This has been downloaded 48 time(s).

	07-06-2005 00:43									#30
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normally, WoC is 100 spt, but there was a little problem with pollution, and Arashi is normally kept at 55 spt, building Mech inf.

Tempest is building 1 turn MI.

EotS builds one turn bombers, etc.