21-05-2005 01:00									#61
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I was rather more impressed that they did something to Pappas, than that they demoted Karpinski. Karpinski was a reserve General, a woman, and had scapegoat written all over. Pappas was not only an active, but was in the Intell chain of command.

Karpinski may have been a reservist and woman, but there is a higher standard expected from generals. Even if it was "only" a question of dereliction of duty rather than active participation, Pappas and Karpinski were doomed. Brigade commands outside the regular combat divisions are independent commands, so there's no tolerance for failure of leadership.

	21-05-2005 01:04									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: You mean like the way a BG was demoted and relieved of command, and a Colonel was relieved of command (both career ending moves), even though it was clear that neither ordered nor authorized the activities at Abu Ghraib? They were relieved for dereliction of duty. I'd love to see Rumsfeld in the Federal PITA prison. Everyone knows who's responsible. It's a pity a Georgian couldn't throw a bit straighter or one of them might have got his just deserts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone knows, blah blah blah.

I'm no fan of Rummy, in fact, I can't stand the ignorant, arrogant, smug c*cks*ck*r, but orders don't magically migrate from SecDef down 10 levels of the chain of command, nor does someone at Rummy's level spend more than about 30 seconds on trivial crap like details of prisoner handling in country. Gitmo is a different thing, the transfer and long-term detention of those prisoners there is part of a high-level policy process. Micromanagement of activities at Bagram and Abu Ghraib isn't.

	21-05-2005 01:05									#63
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I'm proud of our soldiers. The whole dulce et decorum est pro patri mori stuff. We're just not killing them fast enough! 4 more wars!

===

Seriously, yeah, this sucks. But mention this to John and Jane Gothic, in middle America, and you'll have a few nervous looks your way before they change the topic to how well the corn is growing, and questions why liberals like you, Tingkai, hate America.

	21-05-2005 01:56									#64
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quote: Whoa. America, the chosen people.

No need to be jealous. You can immigrate, my friend.

BTW, I can't believe some of you actually read a Tingkai post. What were you thinking?

	21-05-2005 03:28									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I frequently leave the toilet seat up and sometimes... I even use the last of the toilet paper without replacing it. I've been told that's wrong but I do it any way.

The crucial question is though, did you do these things to prisoners of war? If so you need to find yourself a good lawyer.

	21-05-2005 04:31									#66
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Why should we be? Compared to the widespread, systematic atrocities of the Taleban and Saddamite regimes, which directed and approved the atrocities committed by their forces, we have a few dozen individuals who violated standing orders and policy, and we are systematically investigating, charging, and prosecuting them. Those few dozen are among several hundred thousand who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they are being processed by the US military legal system. You can ***** and whine about an investigating board recommending prosecution back in October and 7 of 27 being charged by May, but that's standard judicial and prosecutorial process. An investigating board's recommendation doesn't rely on the same level or standard of evidence needed to commence a General Court Martial prosecution under the UCMJ and the procedural requirements of the MCM. The pace and requirements are not a lot different in the US military legal system than they are with common criminals in the US Federal and state civilian criminal justice systems.

Your whole argument is we shouldn't be upset because somebody else did something much worse?

	21-05-2005 04:39									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten BTW, I can't believe some of you actually read a Tingkai post. What were you thinking?

Does he have a history of being a troll?

	21-05-2005 04:47									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Your whole argument is we shouldn't be upset because somebody else did something much worse?

Nope. You should be upset about those few that can't figure out how to act, but not say that it is the standard for all.

	21-05-2005 04:53									#69
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First of all, DUH

I already know it is a particular group of people (although on multiple occasions and not just this one particular incident) who are doing it.

Nobody here (at least not me) is claiming this is the "standard for all." DUH

SECONDLY, when the President issues a memo that throws out the Geneva Conventions, that directly sets up situations like this to occur. "Oh, they don't matter, they are ENEMY COMBATANTS. Or, at least close enough."

	21-05-2005 04:59									#70
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I don't see a reason why someone would be proud of the troops and now somehow throw it in the trash. These are again, individuals who have done some evil things, and they still are the minority. The Army does not want this kind of PR for sures, it makes the fight so much more difficult when you have to persuade people to like the US, and then this kind of **** happens. It's definitely not worth it, and this kind of crap gives birth to a new patch of terrorists every time, that attack and maim people around the world.

So it would not be logical for the Army to even want this. So this is a case of sick bastards living their own little fantasy world, where the POWs are animals, terrorists, definitely not equal humans, and thus they can be submitted to such treatment. These people should go to jail for a long long long time and if there's a heaven, they won't be the biggest candidates. Torturing POWs, no matter who they are, is totally crap, and like this article proposes, out of their own will, just to have fun? Trust me, these people do not have a future, and even if they get out of the charges, they still have no future. These kind of people don't make it. They are losers. They will always be nothing but scum, and they will be remembered as ones, and they definitely are no heroes of anyone, so they deserve everything that is coming for them.

However, US troops

sick torturing ******* individuals

	21-05-2005 05:00									#71
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quote: Gitmo is a different thing, the transfer and long-term detention of those prisoners there is part of a high-level policy process.

I wasn't excluding that. Send him to the PITA prison.

	21-05-2005 05:03									#72
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I think Americans were more outraged by Martha Stewart than they have been of these torture scandals.

	21-05-2005 05:31									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker First of all, DUH

Hadn't expected otherwise from you - guess that it's your standard defense.

quote: I already know it is a particular group of people (although on multiple occasions and not just this one particular incident) who are doing it.

Are you saying that it is deliberately that they have done it ?

quote: Nobody here (at least not me) is claiming this is the "standard for all." DUH

isn't that the whole purpose of this thread ? and don't you support this ?

quote: SECONDLY, when the President issues a memo that throws out the Geneva Conventions, that directly sets up situations like this to occur. "Oh, they don't matter, they are ENEMY COMBATANTS. Or, at least close enough."

When did that happen ? If that should be a fact, how come that there are people at court because they has apparently broken the Geneva Conventions ?

	21-05-2005 05:31									#74
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What has Martha Stewart done?

	21-05-2005 05:52									#75
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Tortured some egg rolls. It wasn't pretty.

	21-05-2005 05:56									#76
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat Hadn't expected otherwise from you - guess that it's your standard defense. Are you saying that it is deliberately that they have done it ? isn't that the whole purpose of this thread ? and don't you support this ?

BlackCat Framing strategy: Pretend you didn't read anything someone says and try to tell them they said something else.

quote: When did that happen ? If that should be a fact, how come that there are people at court because they has apparently broken the Geneva Conventions ?

Ummm...because "those people" are the President of the United States and members of his Cabinet.

Here's the memo, read it for yourself DL:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...emo20020801.pdf

	21-05-2005 06:29									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker BlackCat Framing strategy: Pretend you didn't read anything someone says and try to tell them they said something else.

And The Ted uses his usual strategy : don't answer a question.

quote: Ummm...because "those people" are the President of the United States and members of his Cabinet. Here's the memo, read it for yourself DL: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...emo20020801.pdf

Really, where in this 50 page memo are your claims proved ?

	21-05-2005 07:25									#78
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quote: Originally posted by BlackCat And The Ted uses his usual strategy : don't answer a question.

Already answered the question. I'm not going to repeat myself because of your laziness and inability to read.

quote: Really, where in this 50 page memo are your claims proved ?

Probably the part where they say something to the effect of the "The Geneva Conventions don't apply to them," part.

	21-05-2005 07:27									#79
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Sorry, I gave you the wrong memo. But that "nice" 50 page memo is the one where they redefine certain kinds of torture so they are not considered torture.

Here's the one that is addressed to the President, from Alberto Gonzales, that says, EXACTLY:

quote: ... the Geneva Convention III on the Treatment of Prisoners of War (GPW) does not apply to the conflict with Al Queda.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999148/site/newsweek/

PWN3D

	21-05-2005 10:11									#80
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Most of our soldiers are trash whose true nature would disgrace our country. All this myth about the redblooded 'murcan heroes is for the most part, bullshit. The low pay of the military serves to attract the least qualified, least educated, and least intelligent America has to offer. This explains why so many have been so quick to violate the original principles of the United States - racist rednecks with guns.

Much of the same can be said about the legions of dimwits driving around with their SUV plastered with "I HEART JESUS SUPPORT THE TROOPS AND GEORGE BUSH GAYS=SIN=BURN"

	21-05-2005 10:16									#81
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Ted would you say the geneva conventions apply to all conflicts of any kind anywhere? The geneva conventions very carefully describe situations in which various portions of it do not apply. How can you on the one hand claim that the geneva conventions are sacred guides to all conduct at all times while simultaneously advocating ignoring those portions you don't like?

	21-05-2005 10:20									#82
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Tortured some egg rolls. It wasn't pretty.

	21-05-2005 10:21									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Most of our soldiers are trash whose true nature would disgrace our country. All this myth about the redblooded 'murcan heroes is for the most part, bullshit. The low pay of the military serves to attract the least qualified, least educated, and least intelligent America has to offer. This explains why so many have been so quick to violate the original principles of the United States - racist rednecks with guns. Much of the same can be said about the legions of dimwits driving around with their SUV plastered with "I HEART JESUS SUPPORT THE TROOPS AND GEORGE BUSH GAYS=SIN=BURN"

Obviously any intelligent, educated qualified person will only choose to partake in those activities that will secure the most money for themselves eh?

	21-05-2005 10:24									#84
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If Job A pays 4 dollars, and Job B pays 40, which do you think the best and brightest will pursue, for the most part?

Job A will be filled by whatever dregs remain. The US military is staffed with a minority of intelligent people, and a majority of mediocre personnel.

	21-05-2005 10:31									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Americans, are you still proud of your soldiers? Yes.

	21-05-2005 11:19									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo Ted would you say the geneva conventions apply to all conflicts of any kind anywhere? The geneva conventions very carefully describe situations in which various portions of it do not apply. How can you on the one hand claim that the geneva conventions are sacred guides to all conduct at all times while simultaneously advocating ignoring those portions you don't like?

I've never "advocated ignoring those portions of it that I don't like." wtf?

You're confusing me with George Bush.

	21-05-2005 11:48									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The New York Times has obtained a US army report that tells how American soldiers beat to death two prisoners and tortured numerous others in Afghanistan. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/i...artner=homepage The behaviour of the US soliders and officers are truely disgusting. Yeah, I know a lot of Americans here will try to make excuses, but it won't cut no water. What the American soldiers did was deadly torture, plain and simple. And then the brass tried to cover it up. It's sickening. What happened to you America? You should be, and could be a shining example of democracy, but instead you lower yourself to the likes of Saddam, Myanmar and China. Bringing freedom to the world, Bull **** If Americans have any decency then they should be ashamed of what happened and demand justice. Just look at some of the crimes committed by U.S. soldiers. - "He screamed out, 'Allah! Allah! Allah!' and my first reaction was that he was crying out to his god," Specialist Jones said to investigators. "Everybody heard him cry out and thought it was funny." "Other Third Platoon M.P.'s later came by the detention center and stopped at the isolation cells to see for themselves, Specialist Jones said. "It became a kind of running joke, and people kept showing up to give this detainee a common peroneal strike just to hear him scream out 'Allah,' " he said. "It went on over a 24-hour period, and I would think that it was over 100 strikes." - "They stood him up, and at one point Selena stepped on his bare foot with her boot and grabbed him by his beard and pulled him towards her," he went on. "Once Selena kicked Dilawar in the groin, private areas, with her right foot. She was standing some distance from him, and she stepped back and kicked him." - One of the coroners later translated the assessment at a pre-trial hearing for Specialist Brand, saying the tissue in the young man's legs "had basically been pulpified." "I've seen similar injuries in an individual run over by a bus," added Lt. Col. Elizabeth Rouse, the coroner, and a major at that time. - there was probable cause to charge 27 officers and enlisted personnel with criminal offenses... So far, only the seven soldiers have been charged, including four last week. - A cover up by senior officers: "Two months after those autopsies[that clearly indicated the men had been beaten to death], the American commander in Afghanistan, then-Lt. Gen. Daniel K. McNeill, said he had no indication that abuse by soldiers had contributed to the two deaths." - Soldiers claiming they did not receive training to tell them they should not beat people to death. - Another soldier told investigators that Sergeant Loring lightheartedly referred to Specialist Corsetti, then 23, as "the King of Torture." - Beating up the mentally disturbed: "Some of the same M.P.'s took a particular interest in an emotionally disturbed Afghan detainee who was known to eat his feces and mutilate himself with concertina wire. The soldiers kneed the man repeatedly in the legs and, at one point, chained him with his arms straight up in the air." - When the detainees were beaten or kicked for "noncompliance," one of the interpreters, Ali M. Baryalai said, it was often "because they have no idea what the M.P. is saying." - One M.P. said he had given him five peroneal strikes for being "noncompliant and combative." Another gave him three or four more for being "combative and noncompliant." Some guards later asserted that he had been hurt trying to escape. - "It looked like he had been dead for a while, and it looked like nobody cared," the medic, Staff Sgt. Rodney D. Glass, recalled. - Mr. Habibullah's [a prisoner] autopsy, completed on Dec. 8, showed bruises or abrasions on his chest, arms and head. There were deep contusions on his calves, knees and thighs. His left calf was marked by what appeared to have been the sole of a boot. - In interviews after their release, the men described their treatment at Bagram as far worse than at Guantánamo. While all of them said they had been beaten, they complained most bitterly of being stripped naked in front of female soldiers for showers and medical examinations, which they said included the first of several painful and humiliating rectal exams. - "In sworn statements to Army investigators, soldiers describe one female interrogator with a taste for humiliation stepping on the neck of one prostrate detainee and kicking another in the genitals. They tell of a shackled prisoner being forced to roll back and forth on the floor of a cell, kissing the boots of his two interrogators as he went. Yet another prisoner is made to pick plastic bottle caps out of a drum mixed with excrement and water as part of a strategy to soften him up for questioning." Shame on you America, shame on you.

Play the rules of the other team. The one's hiding among their own civilians.
The one's who are so adept at killing civilians, insuspecting and innocent.

Shame,shame. How sickening.
Depends on your point of view.

	21-05-2005 11:51									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I've never "advocated ignoring those portions of it that I don't like." wtf? You're confusing me with George Bush.

the geneva specifically exempts un-uniformed combatants from the protections promised to uniformed combatants. Both george bush and the geneva conventions agree on that point yet it would appear that you do not. Therefore I observe that you accept those portions of the geneva conventions you agree with while rejecting those you do not like.

What portion of the geneva convention do you feel george bush has been ignoring?

	21-05-2005 11:53									#89
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The part you just mentioned.

Colin Powell agrees with me.

	21-05-2005 11:54									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Verto If Job A pays 4 dollars, and Job B pays 40, which do you think the best and brightest will pursue, for the most part? Job A will be filled by whatever dregs remain. The US military is staffed with a minority of intelligent people, and a majority of mediocre personnel.

Job a is selling drugs, job b is working as a grade school teacher. Job a pays far better than job b. Which job do you think will be filled by the 'remaining dregs' of society?