22-05-2005 10:09									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh Nice dodge there by the way.

The PRC only hires the best.

	22-05-2005 11:18									#32
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Oh, ****.

This thread is NOT about UR. It's about the concept of online government propaganda in general, and it's ethical value, esp. vis a vis other propaganda sources on the web.

	22-05-2005 12:01									#33
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quote: Maybe cuz the PRC deserves it more than the US?

Hardly, it isn't democratic. That's the overwhelming reason Israel gets singled out (despite the paranoia of some of its citizens).

But I think it is silly to criticize the PRC in the way Poly's Sinophobes do. That country is slowly getting better, opening itself to the world and makes a lot of stuff we use. Added to that, it is the repository of one of the world's great cultures and has historically been quite benign compared to countries like, say, Spain.

And it's an American thing. Outside of East Asia, where there are regional rivalries, most folk don't have a big problem with China. Political elites in the US have identified China as a competitor – hence the hysteria in that country over everything China does.

Ask yourself this. How many nuclear weapons do the Chinese have, and why do they have so few when it was perfectly feasible for them to have multiple times that amount. The only compelling explanation I have ever seen offered is genuine restraint.

	22-05-2005 12:05									#34
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or that they don't need more than that of those extremely expensive weapons ( both to build and maintain), realizing they've got enough for MAD?

	22-05-2005 12:26									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Meanwhile, DaShi here has been silent on virtually all threads critical of the US, while quite verbal in criticising the PRC. Interesting.

[cough]Strawman[/cough]

1. It's not true?

2. Doesn't matter in this discussion.

	22-05-2005 12:30									#36
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quote: The paper cited an example of how the force works in practice, saying it might react to, say, online criticism of the police force by posting positive views on the law enforcers.

quote: Originally posted by Bosh The Chinese government sends North Korean refugees back to the North to face death or imprisonment instead of forwarding them to South Korea or America. This is evil.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger While you think it's a bad idea to try talking with Dear Leader to get DPRK open up more.

	22-05-2005 12:30									#37
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quote: or that they don't need more than that of those extremely expensive weapons ( both to build and maintain), realizing they've got enough for MAD

That doesn't really fit the evidence, if the USA and USSR are our models. The Chinese just aren't particularly belligerent by world standards. That's not saying that they are perfect, but I'd sooner worry about the Japanese.

I see a Canadian MP got in trouble for calling Japanese soldiers "Japs" and "bastards". IMHO they're lucky that's all he called them.

	22-05-2005 12:35									#38
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Finally UR's activities here at poly have been explained.

	22-05-2005 12:36									#39
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quote: That doesn't really fit the evidence, if the USA and USSR are our models. The Chinese just aren't particularly belligerent by world standards. That's not saying that they are perfect, but I'd sooner worry about the Japanese.

It's not smart to be belligerent if you can't walk the walk. The USSR and the USA had much more economical power going for them. It's not a fair comparison.

In any case, the behaviour on the international stage is largely a side-issue in the judgement of ethical value, since the farther away from the government the object of the power's interest is, the more alike they all behave. Thus, bar a couple of exceptions, the true judgement of the country's ethical value is in it's society and policies towards it's citizens.

	22-05-2005 12:41									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But I think it is silly to criticize the PRC in the way Poly's Sinophobes do. That country is slowly getting better, opening itself to the world and makes a lot of stuff we use. Added to that, it is the repository of one of the world's great cultures and has historically been quite benign compared to countries like, say, Spain.

Even I'll agreed that some posters here go too far. I don't want to name names as I usually stop reading those posts and forget who writes them. But to ignore all topics that may criticize China on a forum for discussion is foolish. Unless we just want to turn this into an anti-American-I-love-Communism forum.

quote: And it's an American thing. Outside of East Asia, where there are regional rivalries, most folk don't have a big problem with China. Political elites in the US have identified China as a competitor – hence the hysteria in that country over everything China does.

Perhaps for America, China is the regional rival. The Chinese should be flattered. As for criticism, they had better get used to it. It ain't going to get better as China becomes more developed and more influencial in the world.

quote: Ask yourself this. How many nuclear weapons do the Chinese have, and why do they have so few when it was perfectly feasible for them to have multiple times that amount. The only compelling explanation I have ever seen offered is genuine restraint.

A good point, but how many nuclear weapons did the Soviet Union have? How many does NK have? How many does Syria have? How many does Saudi Arabia have? How many does Zimbabwe have? How many does France have?

China isn't as rich as it may look. It's getting there, but living here, you notice it still has a way to go. Getting into an arms race is the last thing they want. Plus, I genuinely beleive that the current China has no desire to start or partake in a nuclear war, and only wants enough as a deterent.

	22-05-2005 12:51									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That doesn't really fit the evidence, if the USA and USSR are our models. The Chinese just aren't particularly belligerent by world standards. That's not saying that they are perfect, but I'd sooner worry about the Japanese.

This about a country that was literally calling for blood a month ago? This about a country that attacked its weaker neighbor just to send a message? This about a country that is quite obvious about seeking better and stronger military technology? This from a country where space is primarily a military objective even such that they gave their first astronaut a gun? This about a country that passed a bill allowing for war with and the possible decimation of a neighboring island? This about a country when a political incident occurred willfully had its own people turn on eachother just to save its leader's face? This about a country that destroyed any hope of future peaceful dissention by running over children with tanks?

When you say China, are you really talking about Taiwan? Because I'm confused.

	22-05-2005 13:01									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon That's not saying that they are perfect, but I'd sooner worry about the Japanese. I see a Canadian MP got in trouble for calling Japanese soldiers "Japs" and "bastards". IMHO they're lucky that's all he called them.

And tell me. What in the last fifty years have the Japanese done to warrant such worry from Agathon?

I believe that you are becoming blind in this issue. By painting the US so bleakly as you have done in the past, you are forcing yourself to make China (which you have labelled its polar opposite) into a nigh Utopia. Thus, China's own opinions about the Japanese may be affecting yours. I don't want to say this is a Canadian thing, but I find it common among Canadians here in China who truly hate the US to love China and blindly ignore its faults.

	22-05-2005 13:11									#43
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quote: And tell me. What in the last fifty years have the Japanese done to warrant such worry from Agathon?

Dude, if you come from where I do, you will find quite a few older guys who were Japanese prisoners of war. They hold a grudge, and after they tell you what happened to them, it isn't hard to develop a dim view of Japanese militarism.

quote: This about a country that was literally calling for blood a month ago? This about a country that attacked its weaker neighbor just to send a message? This about a country that is quite obvious about seeking better and stronger military technology? This from a country where space is primarily a military objective even such that they gave their first astronaut a gun? This about a country that passed a bill allowing for war with and the possible decimation of a neighboring island? This about a country when a political incident occurred willfully had its own people turn on eachother just to save its leader's face? This about a country that destroyed any hope of future peaceful dissention by running over children with tanks?

Now you're just exaggerating.

I'll take your indictment of the PRC and raise you the United States in the last twenty years. The death toll from US policy has been substantially higher methinks.

	22-05-2005 13:13									#44
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quote: By painting the US so bleakly as you have done in the past, you are forcing yourself to make China (which you have labelled its polar opposite) into a nigh Utopia.

I've never said it was a utopia; just that it is nowhere near the international rogue state that the Americans like to paint.

And Taiwan is part of China.

	22-05-2005 13:23									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: And tell me. What in the last fifty years have the Japanese done to warrant such worry from Agathon? Dude, if you come from where I do, you will find quite a few older guys who were Japanese prisoners of war. They hold a grudge, and after they tell you what happened to them, it isn't hard to develop a dim view of Japanese militarism.

My grandfather hates the Japanese, and he was stationed in N. Africa. I believe that Japan is a different country today than it was. And given it's current condition, no real threat to anyone.

quote: This about a country that was literally calling for blood a month ago? This about a country that attacked its weaker neighbor just to send a message? This about a country that is quite obvious about seeking better and stronger military technology? This from a country where space is primarily a military objective even such that they gave their first astronaut a gun? This about a country that passed a bill allowing for war with and the possible decimation of a neighboring island? This about a country when a political incident occurred willfully had its own people turn on eachother just to save its leader's face? This about a country that destroyed any hope of future peaceful dissention by running over children with tanks?

quote: Now you're just exaggerating.

A little. But not much.

quote: I'll take your indictment of the PRC and raise you the United States in the last twenty years. The death toll from US policy has been substantially higher methinks.

But my argument isn't that the US is not belligerent. I can't prove that.

My argument is that China is not a pacifist country. Never really was. And now it's aggression is about on par with that of the Chin dynasty.

	22-05-2005 13:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi quote: quote: The paper cited an example of how the force works in practice, saying it might react to, say, online criticism of the police force by posting positive views on the law enforcers. quote: quote: Originally posted by Bosh The Chinese government sends North Korean refugees back to the North to face death or imprisonment instead of forwarding them to South Korea or America. This is evil. quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger While you think it's a bad idea to try talking with Dear Leader to get DPRK open up more.

quote: I genuinely beleive that the current China has no desire to start or partake in a nuclear war, and only wants enough as a deterent.

Right, they're not insane.

quote: Dude, if you come from where I do, you will find quite a few older guys who were Japanese prisoners of war. They hold a grudge, and after they tell you what happened to them, it isn't hard to develop a dim view of Japanese militarism.

The Japanese have plenty of skeletons in their closet and the way their textbooks treat their army's atrocities in WW II is a disgrace, but its laughable to think that "Japanese militarism" is a threat to anyone these days.

God and enough of these silly "but the US does it too!" arguements.

	22-05-2005 18:14									#47
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Would it be possible to use proxy servers and spyware to bounce treasonous messages off of the computers of prominent members of the goverment so that they begin to devour their own kind?

	22-05-2005 18:48									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Maybe cuz the PRC deserves it more than the US? Hardly, it isn't democratic.

Therefore anything it does is perfectly fine

	22-05-2005 19:39									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Would it be possible to use proxy servers and spyware to bounce treasonous messages off of the computers of prominent members of the goverment so that they begin to devour their own kind?

Certainly, but only low level members would not have the clout to protect themselves.

	22-05-2005 19:41									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker There is one country in this world that's killed off millions of its citizens in order to support its ideology. The country is not the US.

The US is much more refined, it kills the citizens of other countries.

	22-05-2005 19:44									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Bosh God and enough of these silly "but the US does it too!" arguements.

When used to confront the ethnocentric views of the American right on these boards, this argument isn't silly.

	22-05-2005 19:57									#52
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We have these here, they're just called Rush Limbaugh listeners.

	22-05-2005 20:01									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Az Oh, ****. This thread is NOT about UR. It's about the concept of online government propaganda in general, and it's ethical value, esp. vis a vis other propaganda sources on the web.

Perhaps it could a new unit in Civ 4.


After all they had televangelists and subneural ads in another game....

	22-05-2005 20:04									#54
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That would be cool.

Call it the Propagandist.

	22-05-2005 20:07									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker That would be cool. Call it the Propagandist.

I'd have my own versions- the Neddite for the secular state, and the Obigynist for the theocratic.


Both would have the power to suck whole cities or provinces into another dimension, where the research rate has a negative rating, and in the Obigynist realm, the birth rate rises dramatically but hunger and disease burgeon exponentially.

	22-05-2005 20:20									#57
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Enother reason why replacing pollution with health is a great idea.

	22-05-2005 20:22									#58
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Okay...Let's review things for the Libs one more time...

1.) China has invaded Vietnam, India, Tibet, and fought against Security council authorized UN troops...all since WWII.

2.) China has vilolently put down internal disent...to the point of turning the military on their own people.

3.) There are political prisoners in China...lot's of them.

4.) China is the only real friend to the world's most reviled regime.

5.) China seeks to threaten, bully, and invade a country that has become very democratic...all in the name of a nebulous "one China" policy...very reminesent of Hitler's words about Germany before WWII.

6.) China now seeks to control the free flow of ideas on the internet through state sponsored "opinion forming". haha

Yeah...they are getting better, but they ain't even close to benign. If they can be held in check another 100 years then they may be able to join a free world community, but that day is far in the future.

Until then, a repressive government that has their kind of power is a threat to us all...not just the US.

	22-05-2005 20:26									#59
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In short- China has done the same things that the U.S. , the French, the Soviet Union and the Britiish did, but differently.


Oh, and they were badarse commies too, so that makes it bad when they do it.

	22-05-2005 20:56									#60
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"This thread is NOT about UR. It's about the concept of online government propaganda in general, and it's ethical value, esp. vis a vis other propaganda sources on the web."

UR is so supportive of the despotic, anti democratic, Chinese 'Tienamen Square kill em all' government that he is:

1. Scared to post his true feelings because the internet police will get him.

2. Working for the Chinese govenment.

3. Really believes what he says, which is to me, the hardest thing to contemplate.

His reaction is always to counter attack, that's right out of the old Soviet book.

I have no problem with UR, I like him, but something is not right. My guess is he can't post what he really thinks...because he is very bright and must know what's up.