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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:22
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My ancestors were Eastern European Jews, as far back as I have records, (which isnt all that far back - roughly 1870 all the way across the tree, with some hints a generation or two further back).
My paternal grandmother's family was from Vilna, Lithuania. My paternal grandfather was born in Minsc, Belarus, though in Jewish Geography that was Lithuania as well, since all Jews from the lands of the Grand Duchy were called "litvaks". My maternal grandparents were of Galician (south Polish) origin - my maternal grandmother was I believe from Lodz (though of Galician ancestry) while my maternal grandfather was actually born in a small town in Galicia.
AFAIK, like most east european Jews, they were descended from migrants from Western and Southern europe, who in turn came from the Mediterranean world, who in turn came from the land of Israel (sometime via Babylonia). Ergo (most of) my ancestors came from ancient Judea.
As for the "what are the Jews question" The distinctions of nation, ethnicity, and religion are themselves foreign to Jewish civilization. A Jew is someone who belongs to a people who are dedicated to following God's Torah. Whether or not he does so. And she may be born into that people, OR she may join it, by a "religious" conversion ceremony.
As R. Abraham Joshua Heschel said ' Israel is not one species of the genus "nation". It is the ONLY species of the genus "Israel"'
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Lancer
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Oregon Coast, USA! or Bohol, Philippines!
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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"Hannibaal wasn't that dark."
Was he arab or white? What color were the Carthaginians?
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Bereta_Eder
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that's mainly because you talk without any substantial knowledge in an ex - cathedra manner btw
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Bereta_Eder
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che, rebuttals over the internet?
I only responded because you sometimes get a molly bloomesque ex-cathedra style about things that you obviously only have scratched the surface.
to tell you things will take a long time and i dont have that.
but you know travel, visit places, open books, see for yourself and then you can say " i know" . (but again you'd think that i'm defending something, so it's useless)
get the vlachoi for example, get and read every book then visit the villages, read anthropological studies (not on ethnicity of course but on social antrhopology) know today's fit into greek society etc etc. only taking a large brush and painting something and doing so in an air of certainty is... nothing!
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
what? thats like saying muslim is an ethnicity because many arabs have hte same genetic markers. but that doesnt make islam a nationality. i mean jeez, this is the kind of thinking that Hitler used "Jewishness is not a religion, its a 'race' and you cant get rid of it by converting to christianity." |
If Hitler said the sky was blue, would you refuse to believe it?
That fact that anti-Semites used this as an excuse for their hatred doesn't mean they were 100% incorrect. The best lies contain a kernal of essential truth.
As for Muslims sharing generatic markers, it's not the same. I doubt that if you examined the Indonesians and Morrocans you;d find much similarity. Frankly, if you examined Yemenis and Syrians, I don't think you'd find much similarity, as most Arabs are decended people who converted to Islam and adopted Arabic as their language. Most Jews, however, are decended from Judea. Whether you examine Indian Jews or the Lemba, you find the same incidence of a unique genetic marker. The vast majority of Jews are decended from the the Jews kicked out of Judea by the Romans.
In addition, as nationality is a completely invented reality, Jews are free to consider themselves one.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
In addition, as nationality is a completely invented reality, Jews are free to consider themselves one. |
I think this is the key. Despite a high proportion of certain genetic markers, Jews are not a "race" as race is a concept without any particular explanatory value. Similarly our idea of a "nation" is essentially a 19th century concept, and is not really applicable to pre-modern times. A term like ethnicity was originally, and for some still is, a euphemism for race. Or it can be used to refer to culture - except culture isnt strictly hereditary - I have cultural values and practices that neither of my parents had - does that mean ive invented my own ethnicity? More usefully, ethnicity refers to membership in CURRENT social groupings, which share some cultural content, and perhaps some RECENT common origin. But then its pointless to ask about ethnicity based on DISTANT origin.
And all these are value dependent. I could argue for Jewish "ethnicity" based on certain core cultural values and practices - but then a good counter arguement could be made that Sephardic and Ashkenazic Jews were historically different ethnic groups - speaking different daily languages for example, having a range of different customs, folklore, music, etc. Jews privilege the customs that we have in common, originally for religious reasons, and among secular jewish nationalists like Az for nationalist reasons, but ultimately all discussions like this, while they may be infromative, are somewhat arbitrary.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
what? thats like saying muslim is an ethnicity because many arabs have hte same genetic markers. but that doesnt make islam a nationality. i mean jeez, this is the kind of thinking that Hitler used "Jewishness is not a religion, its a 'race' and you cant get rid of it by converting to christianity." |
Islam as an ideology did not call itself a nation. While there is a concept of the "ummah" that represents a group identity that I think goes beyond any in Christianity, and that Christians often have trouble grasping, Islam has always aspired to a universal quality.
The CONTENT of the Jewish religion specifically refers to the role of Jews as a people, as a collective, one thats different from that of other "nations". IF Jews are nothing more than a religion, than the Jewish RELIGION, as religion, is nonsense.
Last edited by lord of the mark on 24-05-2005 at 22:31
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Combat Ingrid
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Satan's Majestic Empire
Nov 2001
time: 06:22
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It seems that the Greeks are actually ethernopians 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...0506&query_hl=1
quote:
HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gomez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C, Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed. The following conclusions have been reached: 1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups. Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles, such as *0305, *0307, *0411, *0413, *0416, *0417, *0420, *1110, *1112, *1304 and *1310. Genetic distances are closer between Greeks and Ethiopian/sub-Saharan groups than to any other Mediterranean group and finally Greeks cluster with Ethiopians/sub-Saharans in both neighbour joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The time period when these relationships might have occurred was ancient but uncertain and might be related to the displacement of Egyptian-Ethiopian people living in pharaonic Egypt. |
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...2505&query_hl=1
quote:
Population genetic relationships between Mediterranean populations determined by HLA allele distribution and a historic perspective.
Arnaiz-Villena A, Gomez-Casado E, Martinez-Laso J.
Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, Universidad Complutense, Madrid, Spain. aarnaiz@eucmax.sim.ucm.es
HLA genes allele distribution has been studied in Mediterranean and sub-Saharan populations. Their relatedness has been tested by genetic distances, neighbour-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses. The population genetic relationships have been compared with the history of the classical populations living in the area. A revision of the historic postulates would have to be undertaken, particularly in the cases when genetics and history are overtly discordant. HLA genomics shows that: 1) Greeks share an important part of their genetic pool with sub-Saharan Africans (Ethiopians and west Africans) also supported by Chr 7 Markers. The gene flow from Black Africa to Greece may have occurred in Pharaonic times or when Saharan people emigrated after the present hyperarid conditions were established (5000 years B.C.). 2) Turks (Anatolians) do not significantly differ from other Mediterraneans, indicating that while the Asians Turks carried out an invasion with cultural significance (language), it is not genetically detectable. 3) Kurds and Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and other Middle East populations. 4) There is no HLA genetic trace of the so called Aryan invasion, which has only been defined on doubtful linguistic bases. 5) Iberians, including Basques, are related to north-African Berbers. 6) Present-day Algerian and Moroccan urban and country people show an indistinguishable Berber HLA profile.
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24-05-2005 21:32
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