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Son of moose
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Cape Town, South Africa
Feb 2004
time: 07:22
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Massive Single Player (MSP) scenario:
At the onset, I must admit that I do not yet currently possess a copy of CTP2 although I am presently trying my hardest to rectify this most unfortunate situation.
I understand that the CTP2 Editor permits one to make truly enormous maps (there is a truly gigantic World Map of circa 11 000 x 11000 tiles available for download at this site) while, by sharp contrast, the original (but considerably newer) Civ3 Editor is restricted to a paltry maximum of circa 250x250 tiles. Therefore, the above comparison suggests that the CTP2 Editor should provide the ambitious designer with the opportunity of creating a truly monumental scenario that might qualify as an authentic MSP (Massive Single Player) game. [Although this particular type of gaming experience will not be to everyone’s liking, it should enable a gamer the opportunity of playing at his/her own pace against the computer-generated ai for weeks (or even months) in a single titanic scenario (that would be fairly compatible in size to that of the average MMO game). This MSP format would be exempt from the seemingly ubiquitous MMO-specific problem of being attacked by opponents while one is asleep or otherwise occupied away from the game. In addition, this game format should be free of other potential negative human interactions].
Surely, I am not unique in my desire to experience the epic challenge of a true MSP scenario as I am (quite frankly) becoming extremely bored and increasingly frustrated by being basically forced to play multiple one or two hour long scenarios on postage-sized maps. I know that most of these commercial (RTS) games have been deliberately designed for the average teenage player with a severely limited attention span but what about the older and more committed player who would like a somewhat deeper and more expansive gaming experience. Imho, these “mass-market” games characterized by severely restricted maximum map sizes and population caps seriously lack ambition. They generally merely represent “fast food”-type games with “jaw-dropping” graphics and highly derivative gameplay options. It is these ultra high-tech graphics that require powerful graphics cards and processors as well as huge amounts of memory to run that have severely (possibly terminally) limited the ability of most developers to even consider the possibility of creating an authentic MSP game.
It should therefore hopefully be feasible to conduct ones empire building on a truly massive scale (and I am most certainly not advocating the type of unit “spawning” that occurs in the Cossacks and American Conquest series as the player must be required to work fairly hard for each unit created or building erected I an MSP game in order to derive maximum satisfaction from his/her game playing experience and exploits). The primary focus of the empire building strategy would demarcate the “builder-warrior” (one who prefers building new cities and structures) from the “warrior-builder” (one who prefers to create great armies often featuring a diverse selection of military units).
Before one could even attempt to create a meaningful MSP game from this capacity seemingly afforded by CTP2, it would be necessary to investigate what type of modifications would need to be introduced in order to facilitate optimal gameplay on a truly gigantic map. Indeed, it would seem a reasonable idea to restrict this proposed mega scenario to the Ancient and Medieval periods (not only to encourage a certain mystical ambience but also to prevent it from becoming bogged down in the way distant future as a direct result of its significantly enhanced longevity). In order to do this appropriately, the following issues need to be addressed:
· What additional mods (changes) would be necessary to the default CPT2 scripts:
o Increased tile movement per turn (due to the sheer size of the proposed map)? [Or would this development potentially ruin the gameplay by changing the whole ingame “mechanics”?].
o Increased number of sprites (and, thereby, visible population cap)? [An exponentially enlarged map (compared to the average “Civ-type” game) would surely require a proportional increase in the number of units populating it. However, as the vast majority of these units would obviously be “off screen” at any particular time, there should be no major performance problems relating to the average graphics card].
o Increased number of cities on the map? [Again as a direct function of an exponentially enlarged map].
o Could the ai opponent(s) be prevented from building any new cities if the completed mega scenario map was designed to contain a series of pre-build and specifically pre-positioned cities (placed in suitably strategic positions on the map)? [I have previously seen (in other mainly RTS games) many examples of the ai totally ruining a pre-designed scenario by totally inappropriate structure (city) placement].
· Which currently available user-made mods would suitably optimize the abovementioned Ancient and Medieval period-restricted mega scenario (e.g. Hexagon’s Cradle of Civilization mod)?
o Would it be possible for someone who is an expert modder to combine the best of the Ancient and Medieval mods to complement the existing CTP2 gameplay in order to optimize the MSP experience?
I am absolutely sure that there are a host of other relevant technical and gameplay-related considerations that first need to be addressed before one can come close to perfecting the gameplay that should be possible with an MSP scenario.
Anyone interested in discussing the pros and cons of this concept or even becoming involved….?
WILL THIS BE POSSIBLE IN CIV 4?
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Son of moose
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Cape Town, South Africa
Feb 2004
time: 07:22
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Vince278:
Maybe I have confused OmniGod's circa 200MB BMP Worldmap with a genuine CTP2 map. Maybe (as you suggest) 400x400 is the largest map size that one can obtain with CTP2. [However, a prominent modder has suggested that it might indeed be possible to alter the map.txt file to accomodate Super Gigantic maps].
Therefore I am becoming somewhat confused myself. Possibly the quotation included below does pretty well confirm you viewpoint.
quote:
Earth map (400 x 400) ready to play``(based on OmniGod's gigantic Worldmap), with 8 Nations``(Germans, Indians, Chinese, Australians, Native Americans,``Incas, Zulus and Mayas). If somebody knows, how to add all``nations to choice, please contact me! |
I am sorry if I have misunderstood this matter. 
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Immortal Wombat
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in perpetuity
Dec 2000
time: 05:22
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Hmm. Well it seems the game can't actually cope with a map that large. I reached about 1000 by 1000, so trying to load a map 10800 by 21600 was about 365 times too ambitious.
300 by 600 was the limit on 1:2 maps, whereas 1:1 maps went up to 900x900 and beyond, until my PC was having trouble keeping up. I think the reason the limits are so different is a problem with rendering the minimap, but that's just a guess. So I reckon if you shrunk Omni's map to 10% in each direction, you could load a game with about 1% the tile area. Quite a respectable 1 million tiles. Playing it, on the other hand, would be slow. Exceedingly slow. Like, the AIs are taking a minute each in 4000BC type slow. You could run a human-only PBEM scenario if the source code guys when have time to get that working, but if you want AIs, you're probably limited to that paltry 250 by 250. Or alternatively, by however patient you wish to be.
Also, the random map generation is broken for any map over about 200 x 200, so use a custom one.
If you do want a truly enormous map, you will almost certainly have to disable a large amount of the "standard" SLIC codes which scan the entire map tile-by-tile at regular intervals.
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Immortal Wombat
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in perpetuity
Dec 2000
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Son of moose
Congratulations on your (?) 1000x1000/2000 world map.  It should indeed look awesome.  I don't know whether it would be worth your while (or within your computer's ability) to experiment with fairly small "gradated" increases (i.e. 1200x1200/2400 and 1500x1500/3000, etc). However, I am mindful of your earlier comments in this regard. |
My last test yesterday was 1500x1500, and it loaded.... eventually. I think Martin's post sums it up: Unless your computer can handle 4 billion tiles ( ), loading the map will be limited by the computer's memory, and playing the map limited even more.
Ok, the map(s). Here is Omni's earth map at 0.5% area (1080 by 1080), because I think a million tiles is probably enough... Here is a 1% area map (2160 by 1080, two million tiles) because that gives a resolution of 20km, (i.e. a day's march, or the diameter of a city, or approximately life size), and also it has better proportioned shapes of land masses.
/edit. Those links don't work. But the ones on this page do.
To give you an idea of the detail, that means Easter Island is present, Rennaissance Island in the middle of the Aral Sea is present, New Caledonia could have four large cities on it, There are four islands making up Hawaii. It's quite big. Unfortunately, the sea is a bit messed up, the continental shelves aren't done properly, and there are no submarine features (volcanoes, rifts or reefs). I don't think these are present on Omni's map, except as shallow water to mark the location. And also, there are a random scattering of dead tiles which were on the big map to indicate the location of rivers. I don't know whether Omni planned to treat them as shallow water, or whether it was an alpha layer that got merged by mistake, or whether it's just so someone can have the fun job of going over and replacing them with local terrain and drawing in the river.
PS. Locutus, the 250free thing is being weird again.
Last edited by Immortal Wombat on 03-06-2005 at 21:23
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Maquiladora
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quote:
Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
PS. Locutus, the 250free thing is being weird again. |
I dont think itd allow directing linking to files, so you might have to create a page for the links.
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Maquiladora
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Got file not found on both links now. Just a guess, the page is in /wombat but the links point to files in the top folder, is that right?
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Maquiladora
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I got them both loaded, the 2:1 one dropped to desktop first time then loaded fine every time after that.
Any scenario on these would be quite amazing, especially a PBEM one for humans.
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Vince278
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Just downloaded them and got it to work after one crash. The larger map took three minutes to load. The maps look awesome. Its good to see a Europe that has room for all of those old civilizations to start on. I see lots of deadzones, many of which are appearently rivers (notably the Nile). Another oddity was when I zeroed onto my home region (Pennsylvania) I saw a scattering of Arctic squares.
Has anyone thought of cleaning up the map some and creating a scenario with all of the civs and their historical starting places? I may try this but it will take awhile. Playing on the maps will definitely give the PC a workout.
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26-05-2005 00:15
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