26-05-2005 07:58									#31
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Doh..... I'm saying the original analogue is not 1:1. It fails.
It's not exactly the same situation. You somehow claim it is, it's the same. I'm not saying it's not similar. I'm saying it's not the same, thus analogue fails, there's better analgoue to it, like the one I just provided, and so the original analogue is false.

You can come up with all dopplereffects and how children in Burma would not agree with this because the weather changes due to the Golf current suggests that you might be right if it's Wednesday. I make you're an art major?

	26-05-2005 08:02									#32
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Yeah and to you Ferrari is just a car. You don't know about cars, do you, especially about Ferraris? It's not just a car. It's work of art, just the same. It's a product, just like a movie is. You sell it. If someone takes your product and copies it without touching it, and you don't sell, it's the same situation.

And for the record, WORKMANSHIP goes into Ferraris as well. Or how about Lambos, where they make most of the stuff by hand? It has artistic value to it, designers, and they sell a dream and fantasy along with the physical product.

	26-05-2005 08:03									#33
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Errr... get a clue, we're talking about relevant similarities.

Of course having a Ferrari stolen is not the same as having IP stolen, or your penis or your mother or a pen for that matter. However how is that relevant in a discussion about PROPERTY?

You have proven that the two are different, right, but you have not proven how the difference is relevant to the notion of property. I take it you've never done abstract semantic thinking?

quote: And for the record, WORKMANSHIP goes into Ferraris as well. Or how about Lambos, where they make most of the stuff by hand? It has artistic value to it, designers, and they sell a dream and fantasy along with the physical product.

Exactly. Thus replicating a Ferrari would be as much theft as would replicating a movie be.

	26-05-2005 08:08									#34
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relevant similarities You aren't trying to squeeze yourself out of this are you?

Like I've' been saying ALL THE TIME it's NOT 1:1. I didn't say it's not similar. I said it's not 1:1, the REAL analogue would go differently, thus the original one IS FALSE. It's not like you can have 5 analogues, all valid to a situation and then you just choose which one works the best this time.

That's what I'm saying, the analogue fails!

Not that pirating is right or wrong.

Semantics is actually one of the most relevant things in my field, thanks. But so is logic.

Read what I said. I'm telling you the analogue fails. If there's a rule about semantics when it comes to analogues, then it's the one that the best one that fits is the analogue and everything else is NOT the analogue.

	26-05-2005 08:09									#35
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BORIS; EXACTLY !!!!!!!!!! I SAID replicating a Ferrari would be more correct!... I wish you had read my freaking posts though, like from the beginning.

Now you admit there IS a better analogue. Case closed.

	26-05-2005 08:10									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Commerically, the movie itself is worth nothing more than the revenue it can generate.

Then, if the guy's movie is worthless (and also not a material object) how can it be stolen?

	26-05-2005 08:14									#37
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The analogy is completely beside the point. Firstly, property rights aren't absolute and there are limits, such as expropriation. Secondly, intellectual property rights were created to guarantee that inventors and artists could enjoy an income out of their creations, thereby also to stimulating them to create further. Such rights are even less absolute since most forms expire after a period.
This is because if the fundamentally different nature of intellectual property rights. As Pekka already pointed out, if you take away a car from someone that person will suffer from it, but if you copy a song or a paper, the owner of the original piece will not suffer from it. Society is served with a maximal spread of information, and without it you'd have to reinvent the wheel with every living person born on this planet.
Hence, Intellectual property rights are a difficult and always imperfect balancing act between the interests of the authors, and the interests of the wider public. It is from such point of view you have to consider the copying/piracy debate: and painting things into moralistic good/wrong terms serves no one.

	26-05-2005 08:17									#38
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Pekka, I'm not playing games, honestly. I'm pretty sure you are making more money than I am right now.

	26-05-2005 08:18									#39
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Colon, no it isn't since I made my case on the analogue alone. If you want to debate about something else, then it might not be so relevant.

The campagn goes would you snatch a purse. NO. Stop pirating etc blaablaablaa.

What they SHOULD campagn is: Would you replicate a Ferrari? The only bad point in this campagn is everyone would say YEAAAAAH W00t!!! I WOULD! Sign me UP! Then they'd force the answer to the screen 'no you woudln't'. So why do you steal software and movies? Yeah I make copies of them and I would make the ferrari too if I could.

That's how it should go. Thus the campagn is false.

It could be done in different ways. Stating that piracy is wrong and taking money from the makers of the product.

	26-05-2005 08:18									#40
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to prosecuting theives

	26-05-2005 08:20									#41
	Increase Your PM Length

The excuse about downloading songs just to see if you like them is no longer valid, as most online stores allow you to preview most, if not all of a song.

	26-05-2005 08:22									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Verto The excuse about downloading songs just to see if you like them is no longer valid, as most online stores allow you to preview most, if not all of a song.

All of the stores I know of allow you to sample 30 seconds @ 32/48 Kbps...

	26-05-2005 08:24									#43
	Remove this text

The REAL analogy would go. Would you steal a computer from the store? NO. Would you steal a DVD from a store?

That's more accurate. Hey, I'm sure the IP rights of a Ferrari are there too. They have trademark crap too, and have vendors.

	26-05-2005 08:24									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Asher All of the stores I know of allow you to sample 30 seconds @ 32/48 Kbps...

OMFG THIS IS HORRIBLE!!

If you don't know whether or not the song is good after 30 seconds, then the song sucks.

	26-05-2005 08:25									#45
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'if you can't figure out if the car is good after you test driven it for 3 minutes, then it sucks'.

Again, not making excuses for piracy. Just shooting down false analogies .

	26-05-2005 08:35									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Verto OMFG THIS IS HORRIBLE!! If you don't know whether or not the song is good after 30 seconds, then the song sucks.

Let's recap for the American:

quote: The excuse about downloading songs just to see if you like them is no longer valid, as most online stores allow you to preview most, if not all of a song.

All online stores that I know of only allow you to listen to 30s of the song (which is a far cry from "most" online stores allowing you to listen to "most" of the song).

And unless you listen to low-fi electronica that repeats after 30s -- no, it's not enough to judge with.

	26-05-2005 08:36									#47
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Stop trying to excuse your theft.

	26-05-2005 08:37									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Verto The excuse about downloading songs just to see if you like them is no longer valid, as most online stores allow you to preview most, if not all of a song.

Want to bet? They only store the most popular artists and even then only one or two tracks. Try finding a store which offers a full selection of indie artists like Mia Doi Todd, Cat Power, The Avalanches. Hell they're just now starting to figure out that people like bands like Broken Social Scene & Enon and those bands have been around for years and years.

Now let's talk local bands. I could think, off the top of my head, of a dozen local bands here in San Diego which make great music but which aren't carried on major labels so they aren't picked up by major distributors. That just leaves Indie labels or self publishing which would only get done on the internet on at high quality independently owned record stores. I assure you that you will not find Three Mile Pilot tracks on Borders harddrive for sampling. Not even the crappy low fi 30 second clips they give for the major labels.

	26-05-2005 08:38									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka relevant similarities You aren't trying to squeeze yourself out of this are you? Like I've' been saying ALL THE TIME it's NOT 1:1. I didn't say it's not similar. I said it's not 1:1, the REAL analogue would go differently, thus the original one IS FALSE. It's not like you can have 5 analogues, all valid to a situation and then you just choose which one works the best this time. That's what I'm saying, the analogue fails! Not that pirating is right or wrong. Semantics is actually one of the most relevant things in my field, thanks. But so is logic. Read what I said. I'm telling you the analogue fails. If there's a rule about semantics when it comes to analogues, then it's the one that the best one that fits is the analogue and everything else is NOT the analogue.

There is also another thing in the field of logic, and it's called "sufficient condition". If X is sufficient condition for theft, then everywhere you find X you find theft despite any other irrelevant characteristic.

I don't care if you think that the two examples aren't the same. This debate was about theft. If you think that the examples given were not 1:1, it's IRRELEVANT! the idea was to know whether or not there is theft. How should we have interpreted your initial comment that stealing at the supermarket isn't the same as copying a song? Was it meant to habe no implication at all to the subject at hand?

	26-05-2005 08:38									#50
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Who's stealing? Last music I acquired was via a dual-disc CD/DVD hybrid (Rob Thomas' album).

Stop trying to excuse your ineptitude in constructing an argument?

	26-05-2005 08:38									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Stop trying to excuse your theft.

Do you ever get the feeling that no body really cares what you think? Do you ever get the feeling that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong? This is as much a theft as listening to the radio and switching stations when the commercials come on.

	26-05-2005 08:39									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Want to bet? They only store the most popular artists and even then only one or two tracks. Try finding a store which offers a full selection of indie artists like Mia Doi Todd, Cat Power, The Avalanches. Hell they're just now starting to figure out that people like bands like Broken Social Scene & Enon and those bands have been around for years and years. Now let's talk local bands. I could think, off the top of my head, of a dozen local bands here in San Diego which make great music but which aren't carried on major labels so they aren't picked up by major distributors. That just leaves Indie labels or self publishing which would only get done on the internet on at high quality independently owned record stores. I assure you that you will not find Three Mile Pilot tracks on Borders harddrive for sampling. Not even the crappy low fi 30 second clips they give for the major labels.

If a band is not popular and mainstream, then it is not good.

	26-05-2005 08:39									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Verto If a band is not popular and mainstream, then it is not good.

>>>>>>>>>> this is what the mindset is of people who buy iPods

	26-05-2005 08:40									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Do you ever get the feeling that no body really cares what you think? Do you ever get the feeling that maybe, just maybe, you are wrong? This is as much a theft as listening to the radio and switching stations when the commercials come on.

Trolling people like you gives me no satisfaction.

	26-05-2005 08:40									#55
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quote: Who's stealing? Last music I acquired was via a dual-disc CD/DVD hybrid (Rob Thomas' album).

Frankly, I'd respect you more if you hadn't paid for that...

	26-05-2005 08:40									#56
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bah x-post

	26-05-2005 08:42									#57
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Frankly, I'd respect you more if you hadn't paid for that...

And download it secretly like you do, then rename it things like "Duran Duran's Greatest Hits" so people don't think you're gay or have crap taste in music?

	26-05-2005 08:44									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Digital property doesn't mean it costs nothing to produce it.

Correct, but it changes nothing. The owner still doesn't lose anything.

There's something interesting I found on /. a few days ago:

quote: Back in 1985 a man named Dowling was prosecuted for the Interstate Transportation of Stolen Property for selling infringing copies of Elvis records. U.S. Supreme Court in DOWLING v. UNITED STATES, 473 U.S. 207 (1985) struck this down because copyright infringement is not theft. You have to deprive your victim of the item in order to steal it from them. Making copies doesn't deprive anyone of what it being copied, therefore its not theft.

I am not sure if this is true or not. If this is true, this simply says making copies of digital content is not theft.

	26-05-2005 08:45									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And download it secretly like you do, then rename it things like "Duran Duran's Greatest Hits" so people don't think you're gay or have crap taste in music?

Man, I wish they had Duran Duran's greatest hits at my rental place...

	26-05-2005 08:46									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Colon The analogy is completely beside the point. Firstly, property rights aren't absolute and there are limits, such as expropriation.

Never said anything about property being absolute.

quote: Secondly, intellectual property rights were created to guarantee that inventors and artists could enjoy an income out of their creations, thereby also to stimulating them to create further. Such rights are even less absolute since most forms expire after a period.

Don't see how this is relevant, as obviously we are talking about non-expired property rights.

quote: This is because if the fundamentally different nature of intellectual property rights. As Pekka already pointed out, if you take away a car from someone that person will suffer from it, but if you copy a song or a paper, the owner of the original piece will not suffer from it.

That's a silly statement, unless you think that people don't suffer from not being able to release, administer and sell their work-hours as they see fit (this includes but is not limited to revenue).

quote: Society is served with a maximal spread of information, and without it you'd have to reinvent the wheel with every living person born on this planet. Hence, Intellectual property rights are a difficult and always imperfect balancing act between the interests of the authors, and the interests of the wider public. It is from such point of view you have to consider the copying/piracy debate: and painting things into moralistic good/wrong terms serves no one.

To say the truth I agree with you. Heck, I never said that "theft" was wrong, I was only saying that claiming it isn't theft is completely wrong.