26-05-2005 08:47									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Man, I wish they had Duran Duran's greatest hits at my rental place...

www.bittorrent.com

	26-05-2005 08:49									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Who's stealing? Last music I acquired was via a dual-disc CD/DVD hybrid (Rob Thomas' album). Stop trying to excuse your ineptitude in constructing an argument?

I'm sure you'd be the first to be angered if someone stole code from you.

Personally I don't care much about IP theft, but it's a two-way game, which is fine only as long as you're being consequent.

	26-05-2005 08:52									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I'm sure you'd be the first to be angered if someone stole code from you. Personally I don't care much about IP theft, but it's a two-way game, which is fine only as long as you're being consequent.

The post you quoted had me saying the last music I got, I bought myself.

But as it happens, code has been stolen from me and code is being stolen from me at work as well (people use our products w/o a license). It's happened to me on a personal level when I made a game in the late 90s, and the game server was compromized and code stolen. I shrugged and opensourced it...

	26-05-2005 08:55									#64
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Boris, you came for more I see? Oh.. what a fool..

"There is also another thing in the field of logic, and it's called "sufficient condition". If X is sufficient condition for theft, then everywhere you find X you find theft despite any other irrelevant characteristic."

Yeah but we were talkign about analogy. There's also another field in what ever. There's no other field in analogy and that was what I was making my point in.

If you punch a guy in the face and he looses all his teeth as a result is the same as if you kick the guy in the face and he looses the teeth, giving exactly the same result, amount of pain etc. BUt it's still not the same thing. But it would fall into the sufficient condition, depending what we are looking at, damage done, the level of wrong of the act itself etc.. it would be the same in comparison. But it wouldn't be the same thing.

"If X is sufficient condition for theft, then everywhere you find X you find theft despite any other irrelevant characteristic."

Yes as for theft, but that's not how the world works. If you steal food because you would die of hunger instead of stealing the same food because you just wanted it anyway is the same thing, but depending how we look at it. In matter of how criminal it is, we can have different opinions. You seem to be wanting to lump all into the same category. Very communist.

And as far as analogies go, THIS IS IRRELEVANT.

"I don't care if you think that the two examples aren't the same. This debate was about theft. If you think that the examples given were not 1:1, it's IRRELEVANT!"

No it's not since I was debating about the analogies which I made clear from early on. Seems like you have problems with syntax too.

"the idea was to know whether or not there is theft. How should we have interpreted your initial comment that stealing at the supermarket isn't the same as copying a song? Was it meant to habe no implication at all to the subject at hand?"

Hmm let's see, I said it's not the same, because the analogy (OK OK I said the analogue) fails. Thus it's not the same. And I said early that there are problems to it, and that I'm nto saying piracy is right or wrong in this argument.

	26-05-2005 09:01									#65
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NO PEKKA!

You are absolutely right in saying the examples aren't "the same". This is just as obvious as saying that dolphin and cat and orange aren't the same.

So the question is: why did you even need to say it, if you agree that it has nothing to do with the concept of property being discussed? The worst part of it is that you called it yourself "myth debunking"

What use is there to go in a discussion about boolean operators and say: "blue and red aren't the same!!!"

	26-05-2005 09:10									#66
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Why are you asking me that? Why aren't you asking yourself why did you start debating about blue and red and boolean operators when I made it clear early on what I was talking about.

And I said, the campagn is wrong, it's false analogy. It should say would you steal a DVD from a store. Not download the dvd. IF we were accurate.

That would equal snatching a purse.

BECAUSE the answer to the first one (original)( if I would snatch a purse, no I would not. But if I could make a copy of it and get the stuff in it, hells yeah I'd copy it or 'steal' it, if that was a method of stealing it.

	26-05-2005 09:10									#67
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When people say that stealing at a supermarket and downloading music is the same, they are obviously talking about theft. That's why your claim of having "debunked" a myth is completely wrongheaded: to support such an assertion, you would have to demonstrate how the differences you mentioned relate to theft and the sufficient properties related to it. Hence my criticism on the idea of sufficient condition vs. perfect analogy.

To use an extreme example, I could as well say to someone who claims that raping little boys and little girls is the same, that "it feels different because one is upfront and the other is from behind", and be proud for debunking a myth, but that expressed difference would be obviously stranger to the intent of my locutor.

	26-05-2005 09:13									#68
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quote: But if I could make a copy of it and get the stuff in it, hells yeah I'd copy it or 'steal' it, if that was a method of stealing it.

That's a silly comparison, because the content of a purse is not likely to be copyrighted (nevermind the question of fake credit cards and IDs, though...)

	26-05-2005 09:13									#69
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No you are not correct even now.

I didn't say I was debating about is downloading theft. I was debating that the original text is false. BECAUSE it's a campagn and it asks questions. And it gives you an answer. But that answer is different if you put the correct analogy to it. Thus it's false.

Is it theft, piracy? Maybe.

	26-05-2005 09:15									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka colon what the hell... what do you do for living? Are you a ... pimp? That's a lot of money on CDs..

Over the last year and a half I've spent 2000$US on DVDs

	26-05-2005 09:17									#71
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Over the last year and a half I've spent 2000$US on DVDs

Are you buying TV show season dvds?

	26-05-2005 09:17									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris When people say that stealing at a supermarket and downloading music is the same, they are obviously talking about theft.

Downloading music is not theft. Theft involves the owner losing something. No, potential revenue doesn't count.

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris To use an extreme example, I could as well say to someone who claims that raping little boys and little girls is the same, that "it feels different because one is upfront and the other is from behind", and be proud for debunking a myth, but that expressed difference would be obviously stranger to the intent of my locutor.

Not that you can't sodomise little girls...

* Urban Ranger ducks and runs

	26-05-2005 09:18									#73
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Another question - is copying wrong if the original material is unavailable at the place where you live ? There are no stores for legtimate CDs and DVDs of movies , music , et cetera , which have the stuff I want , in Indore . So I have two options - pirate it , or go without ( even though I'm willing to pay for stuff if it is available ) . What do I do ?

	26-05-2005 09:19									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Are you buying TV show season dvds?

Some, yes...

	26-05-2005 09:20									#75
	Got spare money?

Probably about 1000$ on TV stuff and 1000$ on movies.

	26-05-2005 09:20									#76
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Star Trek TOS can be got for 50 bucks off Ebay

	26-05-2005 09:20									#77
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Star Trek isn't worth my money.

	26-05-2005 09:21									#78
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EDIT: Pekka

You can't be that dense. Clearly the ad wants to convince people that piracy is theft.

In the following sentence: "would you steal from a supermarket", the idea is theft, not replication!

Your point that they should have said "would you replicate an object on which there is a copyright" is completely meaningless, because this is the exact behavior that they want to pass as stealing!

You can disagree with them, but claiming that their analogy is flawed is NOT a sufficient argument; they don't want to say that stealing from a supermarket and copying protected stuff is the same in the form of a 1:1 identity, they want to say that both meet (unnammed) sufficient condition X for theft.

Your post COMPLETELY failed to address the object of the campaign.

	26-05-2005 09:21									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Correct, but it changes nothing. The owner still doesn't lose anything. There's something interesting I found on /. a few days ago: I am not sure if this is true or not. If this is true, this simply says making copies of digital content is not theft.

that's not current law, at least as far as electronic media is concerned

Basically that case involved the selling and distribution of bootleg elvis videos. SOCUS held that the law at the time didn't apply to the case-that the gov't was going further than congress intended.

the US Congress passed 17 U.S.C. 506 originally in 97, I believe, which closed these loopholes. http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/...06----000-.html

This is from a brief reading by me, I haven't looked into this thoroughly, and can't tonight unfortunately.

	26-05-2005 09:21									#80
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We begin bombing in five minutes.

	26-05-2005 09:27									#81
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Downloading music is not theft. Theft involves the owner losing something.

QUOTE]

what about losing the ability to control one's work and who reaps its benefits?

	26-05-2005 09:27									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Downloading music is not theft. Theft involves the owner losing something. No, potential revenue doesn't count.

That's a very shallow view of property- property also extends to a person's right over his work, hence the very possibility of intellectual property.

If you really believe that intellectual property does not exist, then you basically agree that GPLs are meaningless- because even a GPL supposes that the releaser holds the original rights over the object.

	26-05-2005 09:28									#83
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"Your point that they should have said "would you replicate an object on which there is a copyright" is completely meaningless, because this is the exact behavior that they want to pass as stealing!"

exactly. **** it must be stealing then since their analogy is wrong but they say it so convincingly and THEY DO HAVE A POINT. Duh?

"You can disagree with them, but claiming that their analogy is flawed is NOT a sufficient argument"

Please do notify me where I stated piracy is not any kidn of theft, in sense of taking stuff to you? I haven't taken any sides to it at all. It's definitely not a sufficient argument to say you are not stealing, but then again I was debating about the analogy, and that their campagn is not accurate.

of course it 'failed' to address the object of the campagn. It's their campagn. All I care they could have the goal to air the same video, and want people to show boobies at traffic lights. Did I fail to fit their material to their agenda? OH crap yes I did, because I pointed out it doesn't fit the material 1:1.

Which was my point.

	26-05-2005 09:47									#84
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quote: Which was my point.

But HOW does it relate to their campaign? why do we even need you to say that blue isn't monkey?

Have you ever heard of rhetorical figures? When people say two things are identical, they seldom mean to assert an identity relationship; rather they want to point out a similar characteristic between two objects and put emphasis on it within a relevant context (i.e, software piracy).

If you blame the campaign for not using the most accurate logical identity, then basically you are taking the absolutely inane position of claiming the best they could have done, is to say something to the order of: "When you copy protected stuff, you copy protected stuff", which is a very nice analytical truth, however it bears little practical use.

	26-05-2005 09:54									#85
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""When you copy protected stuff, you copy protected stuff", which is a very nice analytical truth, however it bears little practical use."

Yeah? So? I wasn't making any further claims. Except that it would make their campagn real. I didn't imagine it would be so difficult to grasp.. ?

	26-05-2005 10:50									#86
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I posted this thread then had to leave for work, but I have time to respond now. I've tried BitTorrent before for "things" and I was very underwhelmed by the experience. Frankly, it's been a few years since I really bothered with p2p in "that" capacity. I get "things" every once-in-a-while, but I'm just not that interested anymore.

No, that's not why I posted this thread. What got my attention was that the FBI and US Immigration officals expended resources on something that should have been left to the MPAA. Obviously, they solved the mystery of who's responcible for the 2001 anthrax scare, have rounded-up hundreds of people in dozens of terrorist cells throughout the country, and have successfully solved the illegal immigrant problem along the US-Mexican border. Clearly, they had too much time and taxpayer money on their hands, so they had to make themselves busy somehow. Being the tool of the MPAA was the logical result.

	26-05-2005 11:05									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Verto If a band is not popular and mainstream, then it is not good.

How naive and clueless. There are around 4-6 major record labels which form a distrubition oligarchy in the US. They control around 90% of all distrubutions and they don't like carrying to many bands which compete head to head with one another. That means that even if a really good band pops up they aren't likely to sign them since they don't want to much competition for the bands which they've already heavily hyped & promoted. You know the really good bands like the backstreet boys or Brtney Speers.

If you bothered to look then you'd know that nearly all the innovation and original sound comes from the underground. That's where the great artists are and that's where the best music is but you won't hear it on the radio because the few corporate owners which now own most of the stations only play top 40 since it is bland and poppy and it doesn't upset anyone. The people who keep their nose to the ground and who watch the internet are the ones who pick up on the great undiscovered bands and more and more it is releases and word of mouth on the internet which is pushing them to stardom.

	26-05-2005 13:52									#88
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Please answer my question - is copying wrong if the content that you are copying is not available where you live , though you are willing to pay for it ?

	26-05-2005 15:43									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Yeah? So? I wasn't making any further claims. Except that it would make their campagn real. I didn't imagine it would be so difficult to grasp.. ?

So it was absurd humor then?

But anyway here's what you said:

quote: Just shooting down few broken analogues, like for example the most popular argument.

So basically any analogy that isn't an identity is broken?

	26-05-2005 15:44									#90
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Oerdin, you might have fallen for sarcasm.