03-06-2005 06:16									#1
	Which way are you leaning? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It seems to me we need to decide soon where we are going diplomatically. We have kept a number of balls up in the air for awhile. But we have to move on.

So - please check the relevant threads, in particular the BOH and DR correspondence threads, and the recent thread by BFM on where we are at.

I see three general directions:

1. Ally with BOH and Euphorica, This will likely involve us being involved in an attack on DR.

2. Ally with DR and possibly Lost Boys. Given the recent conflict with AM, this will likely mean a 4 on 2 confrontation - with us being among the 4.

3. Ally with no one. Go full neutrality. Keep the trade doors opne, and build a strong military to protect ourselves.

4. Plan X. You need to explain what this is....

	03-06-2005 06:39									#2
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Splitting AM with BOH still seems to me to be the way to go.

So, I lean towards sticking with BOH/Euphorica. I just have no idea if we can get through BOH's stubborness about getting a larger piece of the pie. Personally, I think we should be proposing an alliance addition to the border treaty we've been sending back and forth.

	03-06-2005 08:15									#3
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I stated my thoughts in the State Of The World thread but here is my conclusion that I posted there.

It looks to me that we have the best relations with BOH. I say we get in touch with BOH and Euphorica and solidify this A3 vs DR. Make some trades with DR as soon as possible - in our favor of course. See what we can get out of DR. Share the wealth with the A3, and get on with eliminating them.

	03-06-2005 08:21									#4
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1. Ally with BOH and Euphorica, This will likely involve us being involved in an attack on DR.

See my post above this is what I voted for.

2. Ally with DR and possibly Lost Boys. Given the recent conflict with AM, this will likely mean a 4 on 2 confrontation - with us being among the 4.

But if we go this way I won't cry for BOH when they are eliminated.

3. Ally with no one. Go full neutrality. Keep the trade doors opne, and build a strong military to protect ourselves.

Neutrality like Communism and Anarchy is nice in theory, but it won't work. I never remember studying about The Great Swiss Empire in school.


Long live the A3!

	03-06-2005 16:37									#5
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This is a tough call ...

There are benefits and drawbacks to both alliances.

Thinking longer term - the 4 on 2 alliance means we are allied to our neighbours to our immediate east and west - which could eventually lead to land pressures. BOH and Euphorica are well away from us. That would seem to favour option 1.

Now - the next question - who do we want taken out early? Who has the civ with strong medium-term potential and/or the better civ players? Lost Boys has 1889 who is very solid, and Euphorica has McMeadows and snoopy. Euphorica IMO, probably has the strongest players (other than ourselves - of course. ). I am not that familiar with Aqualung. Are any of you?

I still haven't voted yet. Please keep this discussion going for the benfit of myself and the others who have not yet weighed in.

	03-06-2005 21:52									#6
	Got spare money?

Well, when you put it that way I am even more indecisive.

When I started this game I was hoping that we could go for something other than a military win. I wanted Babylon to be the Culture Kings as DR so rightly named us.

Before we form an alliance we need to ask what is Babylon looking for long term? Can we really be the culture leader if we pursue war with our neighbors? I asked this before but is BOH pulling us into this war as a tool to be used and discarded? How are we to defend ourselves on two fronts and still become the kings of culture?

We could sign the non aggression with DR and support BOH with trades that benefit our culture and gold to BOH to feed its war machine.

Kloreep & Beta, the two of you have been leading our glorious nation. I look to your input and judgement here. As long as it is a reasoned decision and we stay that course, I will support you.

	03-06-2005 22:02									#7
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It seems that Beta already answered my call for input:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...347#post3835888

Let's do this. Form the A3, but have as the plan that Babylon will line up with LB and DR only to sneak attack them somehow. The A3 will be informed of our plans and share in the trades we get from the fake LB, DR, Babylon alliance.

I still don't fully trust BOH for some reason, maybe it's their name. I think I'd trust the "Happy Flower Nation" more.

	03-06-2005 22:50									#8
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I don't like the idea of attacking the LB, much less sneak attacking. Again, there's no need to attack them unless they necessitate it by defending DR.

Ideally, I'd like to bring LB onboard and make it the A4. Eliminate the two teams in the middle, and split the land between the four of us.

	04-06-2005 00:43									#9
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The only reason I thought LB would get pulled into the conflict is because I thought that I saw somewhere that there was an offer from DR that included an alliance of DR, LB, and Babylon.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=132432

quote: from Kloreep: Got this from Aqualung. (It seems he only sent it to me?) Q: It seems you do not wish to discuss entering into trading or alliance agreements. That is a shame, since the Lost Boys were also interested. /Q

If you can pull LB on board the A3 or keep them out of the coming war with DR all the better. What are the LB relations with BOH and Euphorica? Will they stay out if DR is attacked?

	04-06-2005 05:43									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I don't like the idea of attacking the LB, much less sneak attacking. Again, there's no need to attack them unless they necessitate it by defending DR. Ideally, I'd like to bring LB onboard and make it the A4. Eliminate the two teams in the middle, and split the land between the four of us.

The two teams in the middle being ...?? AM and Dr or BOH and Euphorica?

	04-06-2005 07:10									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Two teams in the middle of the land, AM and DR; the rest of us, so far as I know, started in or near the corners.

The continent seems to be something of a rectangle, with the tall end going north-south. I'm not sure if it's actually that way or if the civ placements simply make it look like that, but I do know that AM and DR will eventually be surrounded on three sides if everyone builds peacefully, whereas the rest of us have ocean to two sides.

	04-06-2005 07:12									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

To clarify why I think that means we should go after them: their elimination can be done with a semi-equal landsplit. Whereas if DR or AM goes after somone, there will only be one team that could reasonably get land out of it. (IE AM goes after us, LB could join in, DR goes after LB, we could join in, DR goes after Euphorica, BOH could join in... etc.)

	04-06-2005 11:29									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

When do we need a decision?

	04-06-2005 17:26									#14
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Kloreep- understood. And makes sense.

planet - a decision is required soon. I would say by this weekend. We have waffled for weeks on this matter.

	04-06-2005 21:02									#15
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Well, let's stop waffling. Let's form the A3 with Euphorica and BOH, with the plans of eliminating Desolation Row. If we can keep Lost Boys out of this that is fine.

	05-06-2005 07:00									#16
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Damn - only two people have voted. And I am one of them. I know this is not an easy call, but come on folks - voice your opinion. Babylon is a democracy!

I finally voted for the BOH-Euphorica alliance. A decision made in the shower after a glass of Chianti. My reasoning.

1. We are allying with two civs who will not geographically pressure us.

2. We are committing to a war that is nowhere close to our border (unless LB weighs in). (but then we have bowmen.)

3. I don't believe BOH has the civ horsepower to go all the way. Euphorica does, IMO, so we should see them out of the game asap after DR.

	05-06-2005 07:11									#17
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Beta, please clarify. Who will we see out of the game after DR? BOH or Euphorica?

	05-06-2005 09:42									#18
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Voted.

	05-06-2005 10:20									#19
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I forgot I hadn't voted. Now I have.

	05-06-2005 19:15									#20
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism Beta, please clarify. Who will we see out of the game after DR? BOH or Euphorica?

Probably Ankh Morpork. And then we will be in a better position to dictate border arrangements.

As to BOH or Euphorica, I think in the long term, Euphorica is the more dangerous team.

	05-06-2005 19:17									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ok - it is 4-0 for continuing with BOH-Euphorica. I will contact BOH to make plans. We will need some more horsemen to be taken seriously. But I still say grwoth and expansion is the priority.

	05-06-2005 23:20									#22
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voted, make that 5-0

	06-06-2005 01:55									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

BOH/Euphorica. Though full neutrality sounds tempting as well, I doubt it would be respected by the other teams.

for not including a banana option.

	06-06-2005 04:12									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Micha for not including a banana option.

This is, afterall, an enlightened society.

	06-06-2005 13:41									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Voted. After reading the trade message by DR, allying with them does not seem the way to go. Let's work out the border "dispute" with BOH and get the Porkians off the map.

If we can - let's supply BOH with gold and trade rather than military aid.