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dacole
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Greetings, I was wondering what reasons people have come up with for there being only one of the various special projects. For example why can't the other factions copy the virtual world once it is built, or the citizens defense force? Lack of knowledge or a special nessecary resource?
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Chaos Theory
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Missouri / Misery; CC
Oct 2002
time: 04:35
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Some rambling:
Right now, projects each cost a fixed amount (subject to Industry), with more powerful projects both costing more and coming later in the tech tree. To build a project first, a player needs to obtain its tech. Sometimes, this is trivial (Weather Paradigm) and other times is a chore (Planetary Energy Grid).
Assuming that a project's prereqs are trivial, players effectively bid for it by sacrificing a base's current, future, and in the case of cashing in crawlers, past production to build the project. Other bases can also sacrifice, in the form of building crawlers or contributing energy to a hurry.
Usually, finishing a project faster entails a larger sacrifice, as workers are switched to mineral-rich but otherwise-poor tiles, productive crawlers are sacrificed, and ECs are spent at the poor hurry rate of 1 mineral/4 ECs. Thus, players can sacrifice more to place stronger bids for the project, even altering their bids after initially placing them.
As the cost of a project is fixed but an empire's total productivity rises with time, these losses become less by comparison over time, so that eventually someone will claim even inferior projects.
Since production can be transferred from project to project, failed bids, like in a normal auction, are not charged against their bidders.
If a project's prereqs are not trivial, one player will likely meet them before everyone else. At this point, if he has sacrificed sufficient past production in the form of crawlers and banked ECs, he can immediately claim the project. If his past sacrifices were large, then this is balanced, but very often 300 minerals (reduced by Industry) for a mid-game project is just a turn or two of production, which is further cut down by artifacts, pod-rushed hog crawlers, hurried crawlers, and upgraded crawlers. The smaller the sacrifice needed, the more likely the player who meets the prereq first will build the project, thus overemphasizing tech.
Central to all this is that in the mid and late game, the effective cost of building a project is far too low, and is even lower for stronger players. Building a project should be a major undertaking, not ten crawlers.
Therefore, the rudiments of a proposal: projects should not cost minerals, but rather turns of production (minerals, ECs, labs, growth, the works) from your entire empire. The number of turns can be influenced by the year, social engineering settings, and perhaps resources such as ECs. Crawlers, instead of being used directly for the project, might be cashable to allow 30 minerals of normal production (or something along those lines) at a base, allowing crucial bases to continue to operate from stored supplies. A project could be aborted in an emergency, but the lost turns would be gone. Switching to another project definitely needs to remain in the game in some form. Producing more than one project at once would be absolutely impossible, at least without end-game tech.
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dacole
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Wow I was misunderstood, but still some interesting responses thanks! Suppose you were writing an alpha centauri story and you wanted an explanation for why only one secret project could be built, what are the best roleplaying explanations that have come up for this?
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Ka Plewy
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How about the second one falls under the control of the first one, or isn't nearly as effective, because the first one has monopolized control over a particular resource?
There are all sorts of reasons, some you can base on the project.
One reason could be, if I were a meglomaniacal leader like any of the faction leaders (they all are, don't fool yourself, when compared to each other, of course some aren't), I wouldn't want to admit the value of any project built by another faction by attempting to copy it.
I could probably come up with reasons why copying wouldn't be effective, for each of them, if you want a hard non-rp reason, too.
Or, maybe they are all copied, but copied ineffectually, or copied only to maintain near parity, but never talked about, because they were the second.
If we look back the Wonder/SP paradigm originally designed in Civ, you'll notice that the wonders were real wonders of the world. The trouble with this, is that the game benefits of the wonders didn't necessarily match the real benefits of the wonder. Just because the pyramids didn't act as a granary in every Egyptian city in real life, didn't mean that the people in real life didn't receive some benefit from it. (I realize more cultures than the ancient Egyptian built pyramids, so don't gig me for not recognizing that).
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Infernis
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I've always considered that each project has a reason for not being able to be copied....Whether it be a link to Planet for the Green projects, a particular kind of software for the Nethack, HSA, or VW...Even specialized types of technology in the Cloning Vats...
The military SPs, however, don't offer up many reasons to not be copied...Every nation should have a Naval Headquarters, Aerospace and Landbased, as well...
But, for the most part, a bit of thought offers up a good reason why the Living Refinery can't be duplicated...It's a space-based outpost and one would assume that the faction that finishes it first uses its Council influence to keep it from being duplicated by the other factions...
"You don't build a second Cloudbased Academy and I'll stay out of space...Agreed?"
~I~
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SynthetGod8
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yes, some Projects, like Weather Paradigm, Ascetic Virtues, Xenoempathy are matters of philosophy and the minerals you invest in them translates to what you spend to apply them to your entire faction. When another faction captures it, they essentially take control of the administrative building or school that teaches and distributes that philosophy.
Although it is hard to justify why the other faction loses the benefits of The Ascetic Virtue or the Weather Paradigm from a role-playing perspective.
Other Projects that give free buildings should be obvious. The faction that builds it does it better than any other faction. Other factions might build their own Virtual World copies by building a network of Holographic Theaters in each of their bases (and connecting them to their Network Nodes), but it won't be as good as the real Virtual World, because they built it first and understand it better than anyone else. Conceptually, a faction can copy the Command Nexus by building Command Centers in most of their bases and designate one of them (say, in the Capital), the Nexus, but it'll never be as good as the real Command Nexus.
Some, like Datalinks, Longevity Vaccine, Immortality, the Space Elevator, the Network Backbone, and Planetary Engery Grid affect the entire Planet when built. 3 of those add to commerce. So the role-playing solution is obvious there too. That faction sells the treatments and sells the rights to use the Elevator to launch sats and so on. For Datalinks, the faction that builds it now has exclusive control over a vast Planetary data-network. It'd be like if Mirosoft invented the Internet. Information flows freely, but the controlling faction can also sift out useful information more easily than others, since they know better than anyone how it works. Other factions could probably build their own Elevator's too, but which is cheaper? Buying the space on the Elevator's cargo timetable or investing huge amounts of resources on a new Elevator, especially since their researches might project that Graviton Theory would be mastered sooner (is that the right tech?) or decide that the resources would be better spent on other things.
Some, like the Hunter-Seeker, the Living Refinery, the Cloning Vats, the Nano-Factory, or the Universal Translator might be seen by the building faction as trade secrets and guard their inner-workings closely. Even if a faction managed to copy or counter the Hunter-seeker (with Polymorphic Encryption), the Hunter-seeker's original designers might design a counter to that as well... keeping them on the winning side of the information war. The Living Refinery is represented by the Nessus Mining Colonies (or whatever they were called) in other factions, but lack the secrets to make them as efficient as the Living Refineries.
Some, like the Weather Paradigm, Neural Amp, Dream Twister, and Self-Aware Colony are represented in the other factions by Special Abilities. They can duplicate the results of those projects into their own units, but they lack the secrets of those Projects.
Some, like the Bulk-matter Transmitter, the Telepathic Matrix, the Self-Aware Colony, the Cloning Vats, and most of the Planet-based ones are not desireable to some of the factions (Miriam, for instance) because of their values. Would a passive faction want to duplicate the Self-Aware Colony? Maybe, maybe not. A Police unit or two might do just as well. Would a faction that's already pop-booming want Cloning Vats? Probably not, or they might already have their own Eugenics program in place (as described by their SE choices that give them pop-boom), but it's not nearly as efficent as the Vats.
The scientific ones, like Human Genome, Supercollider, and the Theory of Everything, and the Singularity Inductor (and the Secrets of.... techs) are all about getting knowledge first. The minerals that go into the these could be thought of as going to into building the very specialized equipment, finding and teaching the researchers and their undergrads, paying huge grants, and conducting grand experiements. Other factions might be able to build their own Colliders, but will likely not be willing to invest the resources to make one as large or incorperate it into an existing frame-work (like a new Fusion Lab or Quantum Lab). Of course, that faction's Collider copy will never yeild the same scientific breakthroughs as the real Super Collider, because they also lack the researchers that the other faction aquired.
Also, as Ka Plewy wrote, the faction leaders have big egos. So, I think they would rather find a way to counter the other faction's advantage than simply play catch-up and say "me too!".
Wow... that was longer than I expected and I cannot think of any other Project examples. Enjoy.
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:35
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Okay, I think, in a strange way, I have a good reason, and example, to answer the question...
Let's first look at the Manhattan Project...only one nation completed it, the US, and yet numerous nations still build nuclear weapons...
In a way, this is because, once someone builds the project, they have supreme control over that area...yet everyone else can share off of it...think of it this way...
Take, say the Longevity Vacine...Morgan builds it, so no one else is going to go to the effort to build it when they can just buy vacines from Morgan...economic theory really, in the short run, there is no point in building "the longevity vacine" when you can just go over to Morgan and buy some shots...but Morgan still has control over the area, so he recieves most of the benifits...
Take another example, say the theory of everything...once Zak discovers it, no point in Santiago building the same project when she could just trade the knowledge for some hard earned energy or a few out skirt bases...
This answer, obvioulsy, isn't good enought, because eventually, all the factions will have some form of a longevity vaccine...
Some improvements could include...
Special requirements for each SP...the longevity vaccine would require 5 research hospitals, the space elevator 5 aerospace complexes, the citizens defense force would require 5 perimeter defenses already built, or maybe x amount of sensors built...human genome, say, requires you to have knowledge of biogenics for 10 years...perhaps some SPs give extra commerce as over factions share off your benifits through trade...
Another idea would be to have a lock-out date...say Morgan starts building the Merchant Exchange at 2150...no one else could start building it after 2160...or say, Morgan acquired half the minerals to build the project, and because you has "an industrial lead", all other factions must drop out of the race...
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dacole
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well if the hunter-seeker algorighim was able to kill off (as a seeker program/trojan) any other program that riveled it would it not be almost a conscious program like the consciousness and thus would not the consciousness be able to counteract it...?
plot inconguiry means plots that are mutally exclusive don't make sense together.
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Hydro
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Winfield, IL, USA
Jun 1999
time: 05:35
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For me SPs are more related to the factions that are predisposed to building them. This means that it is more an extension of the people of that faction and, perhaps, to extending their existing talents than a physical structure. For instance, the WP may be due to the Gaians or Cult’s intrinsic understanding of Planet more than a thingamajig that you slap on a terraformer. This is pretty good fodder for a SMAX fiction writer.
Some XPs do not have an obvious home, and here is where a fiction writer needs to get a little creative since you need to explain both what the bloody thing is, how it really works, how it is developed, why a society would develop it, and in what way it effects the society. Do you really think the Cloudbase Academy is a floating city with planes shooting out of it, like in the SP movie? Well, I don’t. And why would, say, the Morganites develop it rather than the PKs? As another example, what is a Neural Amplifier? Is it a doohicky that is inserted in your cerebral cortex at birth (sounds rather Hivean, doesn’t it?), or a mental discipline (thinking Spartans, perhaps?), or simply an outgrowth of further attunement to Planet (for the Gaians or Cult)?
Now, mutual exclusivity can be arranged by a writer by fiat: you simply say as part of your story background that other approaches – even if tried – simply don’t work, or that there is such a big lead that other factions can’t follow, are far too expensive, or that the faction’s ideology dictates that they don’t want to follow (e.g. – philosophical problems).
There are many possibilities.
Hydro
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:35
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I think the idea of SPs is mostly for game balance...take the supercollider...anyone could build a supercollider, no special talents there...
I think that rather instead of being a secret project, it is more of a famous project undertaken by a specific faction...other factions may have followed later, but since they weren't the first, no-one cares about them...
For example, everyone will undoubtly build their own citizen's defense force, but because the Gaians completed theirs first, it gets recognized in a storyline...therefore, the game benefits the first faction, for game balance...
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Frankychan
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In the Kingdom of Hawaii (CPA Member)
Sep 2001
time: 19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
My excuse for the Hunter Seeker Algorithm's uniqueness was that it quickly spread and killed off any later attempts to rival its power.
This then led into the massive plot incongruity that was the Cybernetic Consciousness, but not to worry - I don't think anybody noticed... |
 I liked this idea. It makes sense too.
So, any technological-based SP is basically easy to explain why only one faction controls it/possesses it. Things like the HSA, Virtual World, etc.
For the more philosophically-based SP's, it's a matter of indoctrinating your populace towards the SP? I mean, of course I can understand the whole idea around the Ascetic Virtues. But would the 'Virtues' even have some kind of administrative building? I mean, I think it would embody schools teaching anti-materialism and all, but how does one capture it? Unless its the reindoctrination to get rid of the Ascetic Virtues? 
And of course, I can see how the Cloudbase Academy works. There's only one academy. It would probably have the best pilots there teaching the tactics of flight and aerial combat. It would be the West Point on Alpha Centauri, I guess.
Cloning Vats, how would they be exclusive to one faction again? I read everyone's posts and I can guess that whomever builds it first would have the understanding needed for having superior cloning capabilities...is that correct?
Lastly, I understand why those Planet-based SP's would be only one.
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03-06-2005 18:15
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