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Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:36
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Bolivia on the verge of revolution? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It seems to be getting closer to that. The two-faced maneuvering of established politicians seems to have radicalized a large segment of the population.

I must say I am pretty surprised, but good on them for sticking up for themselves and @ the elites who thought they could get away with it.

quote:
washingtonpost.com
Bolivian Protesters Clash With Police
By BILL CORMIER
The Associated Press
Tuesday, June 7, 2005; 2:11 PM


LA PAZ, Bolivia -- Riot police fired tear gas and clashed with protesters Tuesday demanding more power for Bolivia's impoverished Indian majority as an offer by the president to resign failed to halt a crippling blockade in the Bolivian capital.

Police dragged miners from the yellow dump trucks in which they had converged on the city, beating some of the protesters.

No injuries were immediately reported. But army troops were seen taking up posts near the downtown Government Palace as demonstrators scattered through city streets shouting slogans against President Carlos Mesa.

Mesa announced his resignation only hours earlier as his 19-month-old free-market government unraveled amid swelling street protests and a crippling blockade of the capital. But demonstrators said that wasn't enough and demanded early elections.

Indians, including women in bowler hats and ruffled skirts, joined miners brandishing sticks of dynamite, coca leaf farmers, students and others who had filed into the capital from the satellite city of El Alto. Similar marches Monday drew more than 100,000 people and led to rolling clashes between riot police firing tear gas and violent fringe groups armed with slingshots and wooden clubs.

"Companeros, move forward!" one of the protest leaders shouted Tuesday morning as Indian, labor and leftist student groups advanced down winding mountain roads into the city of 1 million people.

Soon, dynamite blasts rumbled downtown as riot police fired back with canisters of tear gas that wafted over the demonstrators.

Tens of thousands of protesters had advanced in two major prongs on the capital, paralyzed by weeks of street blockades, food shortages and a day-old public transport strike amid the standoff between white ruling elites and protesters wanting a greater say in Bolivia's national affairs.

Mesa's resignation, if accepted by Congress, could ultimately usher in new elections, raising the prospect of Bolivia becoming the seventh Latin American country to move to a leftist government suspicious of U.S. intentions in the region.

"This is as far as I go," Mesa said in a televised address late Monday. "I have decided to present my resignation as president of the republic."

Mesa vowed to stay in office "until Congress makes a decision about the future of the country."

Mesa submitted his resignation during similar protests in March, arguing the country was becoming ungovernable, but lawmakers rejected his offer, essentially giving him a new mandate.

Lawmakers signaled they were not inclined to do the same this time, saying an emergency congressional session would be held as soon as possible to name a new leader.

The protests marked the fourth week of unrest in which protesters have erected road blockades, strangling the capital and causing gas and food shortages in this poor Andean nation of 8.5 million people.

Water supplies ran short in several La Paz neighborhoods on Tuesday as the blockade took its toll. Bread was scarce, prices rose on vegetables in Indian markets and public bus drivers in La Paz declared an indefinite strike because of gasoline shortages.

Bolivia is the poorest country in South America and home to an Indian majority that has helped trigger the crisis by demands for greater say in national power.

The crisis pits Indian and labor groups from the poorer eastern highlands, including La Paz and its poor satellite city of El Alto, against ruling blocks from Santa Cruz in the east and the oil-rich gas fields to the south that are pursuing greater autonomy.

The protests have steadily increased since Bolivia's Congress last month raised taxes on foreign oil companies that have descended on the country to develop its natural gas reserves _ the second largest in South America after Venezuela.

Lawmakers had hoped to calm tensions in a country where anti-globalization anger runs high. But the tax increase touched off fresh demands for the nationalization of the oil industry and a new constitution giving more clout to Indians, who represent about half the population.

"Our plan is to keep up the pressure," said marcher Julio Murillo, 35. "We still are demanding the nationalization of the energy sector and a constitutional assembly."

A historian-turned-politician, Mesa had no political sponsorship when he was thrust into the presidency in October 2003. He succeeded former President Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada, who resigned after street protests over plans to export the country's natural gas reserves left at least 56 people dead.

Senate President Hormando Vaca Diez, who would be next in line to succeed Mesa, said he was opening urgent consultations with all parties on when and where to call an emergency session of the legislature.

Many indigenous leaders have openly declared they would repudiate a Vaca Diez presidency, or even the next-in-line, House leader Mario Cossio, both from traditional parties.

One scenario, analysts said, included the possibility the third-in-line, the popular Supreme Court President Eduardo Rodriguez, could assume the presidency to then call early elections.

A top candidate would likely be Evo Morales, the leader of poor Indians who have been pressuring one government after another for greater Indian power share. He is an admirer of populist Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who has clashed frequently with Washington.

Morales is a leader of the Aymara Indians, while Felipe Quipse, a leader of the dominant Quechua Indians, is even more radical. Those two groups make up 60 percent of Bolivia's population.

Morales has been helped as several South American presidencies have gone to moderate leftists in recent elections, but his more populist style is more in keeping with Chavez and he has astutely organized coca leaf farmers from the lowlands and highland Indians historically left in poverty.

The United States had stood behind Mesa throughout the crisis, seeking to avoid another flashpoint in the region.

© 2005 The Associated Press


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...0700140_pf.html

Lancer is offline Lancer
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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:37
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Bolivia isn't as large as that article.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Bolivia has always had a fairly radical and militant peasantry. It is unlikely, however, that a revolution would succeed given that the state apparatus doesn't seem to be ready to defect. If and when that changes, Bolivia may be ready to lead the way forward in Latin America.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:42
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Summary:

Bolivians have been annoyed at the neoliberal policies of their government.

A previous leader resigned, and a new one promised to fix it.

The new one did nothing significantly different from the old one.

Protests intensified, especially among the native people who form the majority of the population.

The protesters, who were initially more moderate, have been antagonized by the behaviour of the government and the president into adopting extreme left wing views.

A big protest caused the new president to resign yesterday.

There is another massive protest today and no-one really knows what will happen. There is a good chance that the protesters could not only overthrow the government (which is likely, and is similar to what happened in Ukraine and other places), but also overthrow the neoliberal political consensus in their country.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Bolivia has always had a fairly radical and militant peasantry. It is unlikely, however, that a revolution would succeed given that the state apparatus doesn't seem to be ready to defect.


They may have no choice. The interesting thing is that it is getting to the point where the protesters are just going to reject compromise, and I don't think that the military have the stomach to deal with them in the traditional manner.

I've been confused about this story for weeks. It is being underreported and it is hard to get a good feel for what is actually happening.

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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:44
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The natives that are demanding free gas and nationalization of the energy sector aren't being very intelligent. The government was deperately poor and couldn't afford to develop its existing gas fields much less explore and develop new fields thus private investment was brought in. Now that the private companies have found gas the impoverished Native American population (which makes up most of Bolivia's population) is demanding they be given free gas, that pipelines be constructed to every home in every village, and that all foreign owned energy companies in the country be nationalized. Clearly, that just isn't in the realm of economic reality but we still see western "activists" egging the Indians on and telling them they all deserve life times of free gas and that it is the evil foreigners who are oppressing them.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Give everything to the rich is always your solution, Oerdin.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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The evil foreigners are opressing them.

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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:48
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Also CNN was saying that many of the Indians were angry because President Mesa started a major crack down on growing Cocaine. Many of the Indians make their living growing and selling cocaine and so were upset with the government. I have no sympathy for drug trafficers and common criminals no matter what tear jerk reason they have for being a drug trafficer.

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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:49
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Give everything to the rich is always your solution, Oerdin.


No, making everyone carry their own weight is my solution. Nothing in the world is free and people should have to pay for what they use.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
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Jul 2003
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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:51
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Coca is a traditional crop there.

From what little I've read in the media, it does seem the opposition is determined to keep everyone poor.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:53
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quote:
The natives that are demanding free gas and nationalization of the energy sector aren't being very intelligent. The government was deperately poor and couldn't afford to develop its existing gas fields much less explore and develop new fields thus private investment was brought in.


There's no reason for them to agree to a policy that will ensure that they never see a penny from the deal. Bolvia is like most Latin American countries – a small, white elite runs everything for its own benefit and that of foreign companies. This is the basic political reality of Latin America.

quote:
Now that the private companies have found gas the impoverished Native American population (which makes up most of Bolivia's population) is demanding they be given free gas, that pipelines be constructed to every home in every village, and that all foreign owned energy companies in the country be nationalized. Clearly, that just isn't in the realm of economic reality but we still see western "activists" egging the Indians on and telling them they all deserve life times of free gas and that it is the evil foreigners who are oppressing them


It's their country and it is supposedly a democracy. Even if you think that the people will impoverish themselves by adopting this policy, it is surely their mistake to make and not yours.

I dislike Bush, but I dislike him mainly because of his foreign policy. If you Americans wish to impoverish yourselves by adopting Bush's policies, that is your business. If you don't believe that, it isn't clear that you believe in democracy.

The same goes for Venezuela. Perhaps Chavez will lead the country into worse times. Maybe... but that is a decision for Venezuelans to make, and nobody else, and they have made their wishes clear numerous times by now.

Lancer is offline Lancer
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Paraguay should send in troops to restore order.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:55
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quote:
Also CNN was saying that many of the Indians were angry because President Mesa started a major crack down on growing Cocaine. Many of the Indians make their living growing and selling cocaine and so were upset with the government. I have no sympathy for drug trafficers and common criminals no matter what tear jerk reason they have for being a drug trafficer.


Does your condemnation extend as far as American tobacco companies? Many countries dislike the fact that American companies sell their dangerous products and cause massive public health problems.

The problems caused by cocaine and its derivatives, even in the USA, are insignificant compared to the health costs caused by tobacco smoking.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancer
Paraguay should send in troops to restore order.




Y'know Lancer... you're an evil right wing bastard and all that, but you are one of the consistently funniest people on Apolyton.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Lancer
Paraguay should send in troops to restore order.

own goal!

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 08-06-2005 00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
Coca is a traditional crop there.

From what little I've read in the media, it does seem the opposition is determined to keep everyone poor.


A traditional crop or not it is illegal in Bolivia to grow Cocaine. This is a law enforcement issue. Also no has claimed that the opposition wants to keep everyone poor; what has been claimed is that their policies & demands make no economic sense and will result in everyone becoming poorer. It's just the classic bleeding heart socialist nonsense which has failed every time it has ever been tried.

Lancer is offline Lancer
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Ag, you're just making things worse.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
I have no sympathy for drug trafficers and common criminals no matter what tear jerk reason they have for being a drug trafficer.


No one grows cocaine, Oerdin. The peasants in Bolivia gorw coca like they have for thousands of years. Coca is a major crop in Bolivia, not because of narco-trafficers, but because everyone there chews coca or drinks coca tea. PJP II was even given a cup of coca tea when he went there. It's hardly Bolivia's fault if the U.S. can't control it's appetite.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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Proving once again that abundant hydrocarbons are a real obstacle to stable democracy. Apparently some Bolivians expect they can do what Chavez is doing - run a populist welfare state on hydrocarbon exports.

Are the resources comparable - I dont think so, but data would be interesting. I suspect theres a post-revolutionary economic failure in the making here. Which will somehow get blamed on the World Bank, the CIA, etc.

2005 - The revolution succeeds! Viva Bolivia! La raza unida, yada yada!
2006 - govt refuses to build pipeline through Chile, negotiations with Argentina, etc bog down.
2007 - pipeline deal signed, gas development impeded by govt policies. Other industries face problems. Govt blames globalization.
2009 - a wide variety of market adjustments and other factors (include the 2008 election of a pro-Kyoto US prez ) lead to a decline in world oil and gas prices.
2010 - riots in La Paz. Guardian (et al) blames NED. President Rodham denies US involvement.
2011 - free market party wins new election. Guardian (et al) blame US pressure.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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so why didnt morales run in the last election?

Agathon is offline Agathon
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quote:
2005 - The revolution succeeds! Viva Bolivia! La raza unida, yada yada!



2006 ff. Several other Latin American governments fall in similar revolutions. Latin America is run for the benefit of Latin Americans. White people complain.

2008 - Che Guevara is declared a saint.

2010 - Mexico goes commie.

2012 - Agathon visits New York with his commie friends and forces LOTM to switch from his favourite brand to the new People's Liberation Bagels.

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Oct 2000
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  Old Post 08-06-2005 01:04
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I just love people who cheer on "revolutions" from afar. Can't wait to see the bodies piling up in the capital so that armchair revolutionaries can wear their red.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin
It's just the classic bleeding heart socialist nonsense which has failed every time it has ever been tried.


Do you have a straight face when you say that? Neo-liberalism is what's failing in this case.

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Bread and Circuses

Lancer is offline Lancer
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The indians should rely on their heretage and open a casino.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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  Old Post 08-06-2005 01:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
There's no reason for them to agree to a policy that will ensure that they never see a penny from the deal.


As usual you don't know what you're talking about. There is currently a 32% tax on all foreign investors in the energy secotr which must be paid on top of a 18% royalities tax to the Federal government. Half of the royalities tax is given by the Federal government to the local governments.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12197

Given that Bolivia is the poorest country in South America they should be trying to work for every penny of foreign investment they can get. Instead we have numskull socialists trying to chase away investors and demanding that companies be nationalized without compensation. The only logical result of that policy is that no companies will invest to develop the gas fields since their investment would be stolen from them so there will be no new funds to help develop the economy or pay for badly needed social services. Leave it to socialists to kill the goose which lays the golden eggs before the first egg is even laid.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No one grows cocaine, Oerdin. The peasants in Bolivia gorw coca like they have for thousands of years. Coca is a major crop in Bolivia, not because of narco-trafficers, but because everyone there chews coca or drinks coca tea. PJP II was even given a cup of coca tea when he went there. It's hardly Bolivia's fault if the U.S. can't control it's appetite.


Given that Bolivia is the world's second largest producer of Cocaine (after Columbia) I'll have to disagree. They're mostly growing it to sell as part of the international drug trade. Now they're upset because the government wants to enforce its laws and clamp down on the drug trade.

lord of the mark is offline lord of the mark
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


Do you have a straight face when you say that? Neo-liberalism is what's failing in this case.



I think neo-liberalism is in fact silent on exactly what the best price is for selling natural gas concessions. Its not optimal to hand anything out for free (better to sell it and hand out the proceeds) but if they want to take the loss, they can.

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Golden eggs in Bolivia?

 
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