08-06-2005 01:12									#31
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before this becomes your typical cap/com debate, it should be noted that Argentina and especially Brazil have moderate leftist govts which combine a commitment to social justice with an awareness of economic reality. Of course Argentina and Brazil dont have massive quantities of hydrocarbons.

	08-06-2005 01:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin A traditional crop or not it is illegal in Bolivia to grow Cocaine. This is a law enforcement issue.

The point is that farmers who are denied growing a traditional crop are widely considered to be worthy of sympathy.

Additionally, outlawing coca in Bolivia is stupid.

quote: Also no has claimed that the opposition wants to keep everyone poor; what has been claimed is that their policies & demands make no economic sense and will result in everyone becoming poorer. It's just the classic bleeding heart socialist nonsense which has failed every time it has ever been tried.

And people accuse me of being overly literal ...

As should've been obvious, I meant they seem to be determined to pursue policies that wil keepl everyone poor.

	08-06-2005 01:13									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Do you have a straight face when you say that? Neo-liberalism is what's failing in this case.

I just love it when Kidicious gives people economic advice.

	08-06-2005 01:16									#34
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If Kid is richer than me (which seems likely, considering he's older than me, and I'm a student living in a country not as rich as his), oughtn't he give me money?

	08-06-2005 01:16									#35
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I think neo-liberalism is in fact silent on exactly what the best price is for selling natural gas concessions. Its not optimal to hand anything out for free (better to sell it and hand out the proceeds) but if they want to take the loss, they can.

I'm not sure about giving it out for free, but I think you could make something like that work. I don't know the plan though.

	08-06-2005 01:17									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist quote: Originally posted by Oerdin A traditional crop or not it is illegal in Bolivia to grow Cocaine. This is a law enforcement issue. The point is that farmers who are denied growing a traditional crop are widely considered to be worthy of sympathy.

Have these farmers turned down "nontraditional" prices they were offered? Or were they happy enough with globalization?

	08-06-2005 01:18									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer The indians should rely on their heretage and open a casino.

I shouldn't... but

	08-06-2005 01:19									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist If Kid is richer than me (which seems likely, considering he's older than me, and I'm a student living in a country not as rich as his), oughtn't he give me money?

No. Oerdin should.

	08-06-2005 01:21									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I just love it when Kidicious gives people economic advice.

You say that everytime you say something stupid about economics and I catch you.

	08-06-2005 01:28									#40
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Have these farmers turned down "nontraditional" prices they were offered? Or were they happy enough with globalization?

I don't know, but my money would be on them being much of favour of globalization in this regard.

So, your position is that growers of traditional crops are not worthy of sympathy if denied to continue growing it if the ban was preceeded by a price hike due to globalization? Sorry, I can't agree with that.

	08-06-2005 01:29									#41
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Kid:

quote: No. Oerdin should.

Why should Oerdin suffer for you being radical chic?

	08-06-2005 01:32									#42
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Kid,

Please point out something stupid I've said about economics. I've said nationalizing companies without compensation and giving away gas for free (instead of selling it for hard cash) isn't a good policy since it will discourage investmant and virtually prevent the development of the gas sector. Seeings how this amount to the single largest export for Bolivia by far and a cool 50% of revenue goes to the state this would be a huge revenue source for the Federal and local governments if properly exploited. The demands of the socialists will likely result in the gas fields not being fully exploited though if their demands are carried out.

You on the other hand have been cheering for a policy which will prevent economic development and keep people dirt poor. I guess that's you choice though.

Last edited by Oerdin on 08-06-2005 at 03:26

	08-06-2005 01:34									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Kid: quote: No. Oerdin should. Why should Oerdin suffer for you being radical chic?

Once you understand that, you understand Kid.

	08-06-2005 01:36									#44
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Regarding gas industry nationalisation, all the main left-wing parties have stopped short of actually demanding it. It's popular on the street, but not amongst politicians. A bit like rail nationalisation in Britain.

	08-06-2005 01:37									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I don't know, but my money would be on them being much of favour of globalization in this regard. So, your position is that growers of traditional crops are not worthy of sympathy if denied to continue growing it if the ban was preceeded by a price hike due to globalization? Sorry, I can't agree with that.

they grew a traditional crop, for which they probably got a meager amount of money, and they probably grew in small amounts as a supplement to subsistence food crops. Then, due to global drug trade, they get large amounts of money, and the small supplement becomes a cash crop - the global drug trade however triggers social problems in the receiving nations, which then want the crop eliminated. And THEN the farmers complain? ****, i got no sympathy for them.

You live by the market, you die by the market.

	08-06-2005 01:42									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Please point out something stupid I've said about economics. I've said nationalizing companies without compensation and giving away gas for free (instead of selling it for hard cash) isn't a good policy since it will discourage investmant and virtually prevent the development of the gas sector. Seeings how this amount to the single largest export for Bolivia by far and a cool 50% of revenue goes to the state this would be a huge revenue source for the Federal and local governments if properly exploited. The demands of the socialists will likely result in the gas fields not being fully exploited though if their demands are carried out. You on the other hand have been cheering for a policy which will prevent economic development and keep people dirt poor. I guess that's you choice though.

The people are dirt poor and will stay that way as long as the rich have control of the resources. Comprende?

	08-06-2005 01:42									#47
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By their own strange definition, if a "red tide" revolution hits Bolivia, it is doomed to fail anyways (and then we'll be treated to more whine and cheese about how it will surely work "next time," or, the old standby favorite excuse: "yes, but it wasn't REALLY communism in Bolivia!"

Stay tuned. Should be LOTS to talk about.

-=Vel=-

	08-06-2005 01:43									#48
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark they grew a traditional crop, for which they probably got a meager amount of money, and they probably grew in small amounts as a supplement to subsistence food crops. Then, due to global drug trade, they get large amounts of money, and the small supplement becomes a cash crop - the global drug trade however triggers social problems in the receiving nations, which then want the crop eliminated. And THEN the farmers complain? ****, i got no sympathy for them. You live by the market, you die by the market.

Having your industry illegalized due to foreign pressure isn't to "die by the market".

	08-06-2005 01:44									#49
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Once you understand that, you understand Kid.

Wow! I feel like you are starting to understand me now.

	08-06-2005 01:45									#50
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The people are dirt poor and will stay that way as long as the rich don't help them exploit their resources, comprende?

	08-06-2005 01:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx "yes, but it wasn't REALLY communism in Bolivia!"

I bet you think it will be.

	08-06-2005 01:47									#52
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quote: Originally posted by pchang The people are dirt poor and will stay that way as long as the rich don't help them exploit their resources, comprende?

That's why they need to learn how to do it for themselves, without the rich. Practice makes perfect.

	08-06-2005 01:47									#53
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PS: Exactly, kid...cos, you know...a dirt farmer knows EVERYTHING he needs to know about getting the oil OUT of the ground and to market.

Sadly, even if the government took control of the resource RIGHT NOW, without additional outside investment, no further development would occur (or scant additional, led by an inept gov. bureaucracy), thus once more disproving the much-cherished marxist bible.

No matter how hard those indian farmers work at it, without a steady inflow of capital (and expertise) to assist, the oil stays in the ground.

Summary: Oerdin = correct.

-=Vel=-

	08-06-2005 01:48									#54
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Kid:

quote: Wow! I feel like you are starting to understand me now.

To help the rest of us, how about telling us why Oerdin should give money to those poorer than him, whereas you shouldn't give money to those poorer than you?

	08-06-2005 01:49									#55
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I'm not in the mood for a com/cap debate. I was only saying that in jest anyway.

	08-06-2005 01:50									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Having your industry illegalized due to foreign pressure isn't to "die by the market".

Hmmm. So if Euro pressure manages to get the US to sign Kyoto, and coal miners lose their jobs due to carbon taxes, etc you will sympathize with them?

Look, if coca had never hit the global market, and was just something grown on the side, would these coca farmers be complaining so loud? would there even be such a thing as a "coca farmer" as opposed to a potato farmer who grew a little coca on the side?

You want sympathy for your traditional way of life, you have to pursue a traditional way of life. Not a thoroughly modern, global market dependent way of life that happens to be based on a traditional crop. I fell no more sympathy for these guys than i do for folks who work at Phillip Morris.

	08-06-2005 01:50									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I'm not in the mood for a com/cap debate. I was only saying that in jest anyway.

Im in the mood for a Harry Potter discussion. Any takers?

	08-06-2005 01:50									#58
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Kid

quote: I'm not in the mood for a com/cap debate. I was only saying that in jest anyway.

It wasn't funny.

	08-06-2005 01:53									#59
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Twenty years of free-market policies have done precisely nothing for the majority of Bolivians. Or was it not really capitalism?

	08-06-2005 01:55									#60
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It wasn't. It was kleptocracism.