15-12-2000 18:38									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have been cruising around trying to get into a diplo-game (gee, it gets kinda confusing on all the we-shoulds, but hey, I imagine determining initial parameters would be the hardest part)

y'all are getting up more than one game? I would like to be involved in one but
A) no way I can play on Sunday afternoons -- Sunday evenings after 7pm Central, maybe; so that looks like I can't make at least one of them

B) It looks like Ozzy and them are looking for more experienced players who can post a "resume" that I ain't got for their Ultimate game that bled over here from the other two topics where he's organizing

C)I can do Wednesday nights -- I think I saw that mentioned..

if y'all got anything I can fit in on this time-wise, put me down as an interested party. Seeing as how it would be my first diplogame I don't care what you come up with for starters -- I mean, I have definite ideas and all, but I'm kinda of a "screw it, let's just play the game" kind of a girl, so -- guess that means I'd be easy first time out.

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	16-12-2000 07:02									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Still need a host? My cable modem and I can play on Sundays at 4 PM eastern.

Here is a descrption of map that I set up. I think that it would make for a balanced start and a good game.

I created the map by editing the Large World Map that came with my Civ 2 Gold CD. It is 75 x 120.

I now have a 6 Tribe Map which uses the following:

French - start in western Europe (38,32)
Russian - start in middle Asia (54,26)
Mongolians - start in NorthEast Asia (Northern China) (53,63)
Chinese - SouthEast Asia (Southern China) (63,60)
Babylonians - start in Northern India (53,63)
Egyptian - start in middle Africa (42,73)

I had to use Egyptian and Babylonians because the game uses tribe groups (colors).

I started each tribe on a river square. I added 2 rivers in the Mongolia (NE Asia area) to allow the river start.

I also added some forests to Africa, India and China, because I felt they were behind in productive squares. I created some "natural barriers" (mountains, hills or lakes) between each tribe. They are not large barriers, and I did this to balance the barriers already between other tribes ( like the Mediterian Sea, Red Sea and Himilayian Mountains).

I think that this map will give a balanced start. Since I have seen the map, I would be the last to choose my tribe. I will not know where special resources are, because those would be randomized at the start.

One interesting effect of this map is that it leaves the new world (North and South America) open, and the race to settle it would be fun.

	16-12-2000 21:57									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that I also have a cable modem so I could host if necessary.

AD

	17-12-2000 10:15									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Here is a link to a partial screen shot of the map that I created. It should give you an idea of the layout.

http://home.columbus.rr.com/epikhome/CivFiles/6TribeMap.html

	16-12-2000 23:20									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

AD - Noted that you have cable... Good.

Epik - Not a bad map. If we decide to go with a real-world map, that could serve.

	16-12-2000 23:40									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, let's try to get some basic aggreements pinned down. The 2 main concerns seem to be the map and the rules.

1. Should the map be a real-world map or a created one (not known to any player (me included, of course))?

2. Should the rules be standard (with some agreements about bribing and city-trading) or hard-wired changes (like increased naval movement or MDL rules?

Let's get those settled before we look at other details.

	17-12-2000 04:57									#37
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by cavebear on 12-16-2000 01:40 PM</font>
Well, let's try to get some basic aggreements pinned down. The 2 main concerns seem to be the map and the rules.

1. Should the map be a real-world map or a created one (not known to any player (me included, of course))?

2. Should the rules be standard (with some agreements about bribing and city-trading) or hard-wired changes (like increased naval movement or MDL rules?

Let's get those settled before we look at other details.


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

1. Using a pseudo worldmap is a very good idea. The world will still have the general world shape but we could have surprises in store. Inland seas, new islands (or a continent?). We'll have a general idea of what to expect, but not exactly.

2.
I would go with the usual agreements and some general hardwired changes. We shouldn't change too much in the rules.txt. That's why I proposed +2 naval movement, essentially it means all players get Magellan's expedition!

	17-12-2000 07:00									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

My votes:
1> TOTALLY unknown map, both in terms of creation & who creates it. Do not understand why anyone would want a perfect world that is known to ANYONE? How realistic is that? 4000 BC & the rulers of tribes know the layout of the entire planet?

2> Still believe the tried & tested MD League rules are an excellent set of A VERY FEW, much-needed adjustments. If a MDL memeber reads this, would U PLEASE give us a qiuck rundown of the rules improvements U guys have used w/ great success & how we can get them?



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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

	17-12-2000 20:49									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Let me express a few thoughts about this game...

Game style = Diplo = To me this means:

• Your skills as a Civ manager are stressed
  
• Negotiating is important
  
• Total conquest is unacceptable (alliances will be formed to gang up on overly aggresive tribes) because we want to keep all players in the game.
  
• Role playing and story telling is encouraged
  

Goal = Complete the game. Since only one player can win the game, we need to keep it interesting enough for all players to stay with it.

With these assumptions in mind, I think that it is important to have a balanced start. My game experience with random starts is that at least one player will end up wandering at the beginning (searching for a decent city location). This tribe will lag far behind one that can drop a city in the first few turns and will likely never be able to catch up. A second common occurance is that one tribe will be spawned on an island or so close to other tribes that it has no room to grow. They fall behind in the city count or have riot problems because they are so spread out. It says nothing about the player's skill as a Civ gamer, it is just bad luck.

In the same game there will be good luck tribes that are able to drop a city on the first turn and can expand easily. This is all that a decent Civ player needs to win the game. Establish a big lead and build on it by getting the key wonders. Now you may have several lucky tribes and get a decent game going, but then...
what happens is that the bad luck tribe eventually becomes frustrated and quits. Game Over!

Diplo is also a game where we can have fun telling stories. It helps to have these stories based on a common geographical reference. Like... "Our brave sailors have discovered Nova Scotia!" Rather than... "Our brave sailors have discovered a new land at cooridinates 20, 28".

Diplo is a game of negotiation, so it helps to have an idea where your neighbors are. Tech trading is common and benefits both sides. However, a random start can give an advantage to those that have the first contact. If the bad luck tribe is stuck on an island it may be a long time before he can find other tribes to trade with, and by then the other tribes may have already gotten the techs the bad luck tribe has to offer.

I have no problem with randomized resources and huts. The game seems to do a good job of spreading those out.

In my opinion this game should provide the opportunity to test our skill as Civ gamers, not our luck.

My vote is for:

1. Using a map that will give us balanced start (with random resources), and that looks like the world (or some part of it) so we have reference points for our stories.
   
2. Diety level (you should have to keep your tribe happy).
   
3. Restless Tribes (you should have to provide a decent defense of your cities).
   
4. Incresed sea movement is okay, but I would prefer to keep the unit rule changes to a minimum. No City bribes,or Caravan magic transport seems to be standard.
   
5. 1x move and 1x prod seems to be standard in Diplo games.
   

Will I play (or demand a recount) if my preferences are not used? Probably, but if I turn out to be a bad luck tribe, then expect some whining...



<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Epik (edited December 17, 2000).]</font>

	18-12-2000 00:34									#40
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Concerning city bribing ...

I do not think it should be ruled against completely. If we want to consider it a very bad act, we can deal with the problem in game, and "in character", instead of making a rule about it beforehand.

As far as the map goes, assuming we are still going to have enough players for two games,why not have one game random and one not?

AD

	19-12-2000 07:39									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'd really like to play a Diplo game cave bear i just sent you my ICQ number so talk to me when ever you get on ICQ peace!

	19-12-2000 09:27									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Cavebear...maybe we can get 2 games going...I would be interested in playing also

	19-12-2000 23:16									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Map: I don't think a foreknowledge of a map is going to really affect gameplay. My suggestion is that we use the most interesting map possible, with preset starting positions. I have started on small islands before and am very averse to having to try to beg/plead/steal my way off an island again. I don't mind being "behind" everyone (in fact, I see my role in a Dip game as a support player to a more seasoned player I can learn from), but it is nice to have a good shot at the beginning.

Rules changes: I think tinkering too much hurts the game...but I will leave that to more experienced players to decide. The games I've played have had production X2, which seems to pick up the pace a bit, but it doesn't really matter to me.

I am confident that Cavebear, in his atypical Solomonesque fashion, will be great at sorting this out and should be deferred to by lesser beings such as ourselves.


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Bring it!

"How ridiculous and how strange, to be surprised by anything that happens in life." Marcus Aurelius (Meditations)
Chief Revealer of Personal Foibles

	19-12-2000 23:45									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

As an outsider looking in, and wanting in one of these games, i think that a world map of some sort , perhaps tweaked a bit should be used with fixed starting positions which could be tweaked as well so that not everyone is in europe

MDL rules i believe have a never expiring oracle, dips cost 50shields, there is the non combat trireme for trade in republic , i believe the pyramids expires at railroad or refrigeration. There might be some more. I have only played one or two games at this level.

Maybe there should be a cap on cities, like 40 each or something. If you expand quick enough you can be first to the plateau, and then use WLTKD to grow those cities before the others catch up in numbers. This may avoid the city max problem and prevent one person from having 14 cities and another 70. However that may seem unrealistic as well.

	22-12-2000 06:51									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I like the idea of a cap on the number of cities. That would seem to be a natural aspect of Diplo play anyway. The cap number could be discussed. I think it might be best to set a cap on the total number of cities in the whole game and divide it by the number of civs.

MDL rules would be good, but perhaps a simplified version of them. Too many would be hard on those of us not familiar with them at all. Maybe we could incorporate the best 5 or 10 of them? I thought I had them copied once, but I can't find that file now.

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1st Elder of the O.W.L. Alliance...

	22-12-2000 09:38									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Long time since I've been here so its nice to see you are still around CaveBear. Would love to play a diplo game if you looking for players. Remember our Sunday game from so long ago?

WarningU2
I have returned

	30-12-2000 07:44									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Seems to me that we need to finalize some of the game settings issues soon. I was hoping that this game would start on Sunday January 7th.

I will play if you will be using a map that will give all of the players a decent start.

I would also prefer that it not be a simul game, or if it is to be a simul game that we have some understandings up front about time for negotiations and managing cities.

P.S. If it is a simul game, then I can not host it. I use Mac OS and cannot set the switch.

	30-12-2000 16:56									#48
	Tired of ads?

Cave;
MDl rules tweaks are quite simple, straightforward, & well-tested, I'v never played them but i'v heard & read, they work well.

As for map... random or death for this ol' diplo Civer.
I just cannot understand this desire for a perfect, known world in the YEAR 4000BC!
Why? Where's the challenge? Where's the discovery? Where's the realism?

Are ye men, or maps?

As for reports & news releases & ruler "spin", what's the matter with doing as it really happen, in bits & pieces as we learn of our different jparts of the planet? As it really unfolded. Some may want to share (& brag?) & some rulers may want a low profile.
U Mac guys have some great abilities to do screen shots & chart maps as the world gets discovered. With or with out cities & such.
Be creative! Think outside the box gentleMEN.

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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

	31-12-2000 00:55									#49
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Cavebear, the problem with diplo game is that they do not remove what makes civ a bad game. Huts make civ a bad game as it introduces alot of luck to the game. Bad starting positions ruin players interest in the game. Civ 2 is a bad game because of the slowness , many players lose interest because it takes so long to implement strategy. Once a civ is beat up, and there is no hope of recovering, then that player loses interest.
If you wipe all these out , a multiplayer game could be awsome. I suggest you go read my post "recruiting Players" for just such a game, I think it will be right up your ally cavebear. Give me some feed back, make some propositions.

	06-01-2001 05:05									#50
	Increase the size of your Attachments

My apologies for the delay, but my computer is giving me fits. I have to give it over to the tech-shop for correction. I have foul noises coming from inside the machine, and the IP connection comes and goes randomly as a consequence.

	06-01-2001 23:08									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Excuses, excuses.
Trash that puppy & go get a new 1 on an after-New-Year-sale. w/ all those rebates & it pays for itself.
Hurry up so U can transfer over all those good files & names (sounds like a hardrive nearing it's lifetime)

Then let's get this baby up & running! It's the next year already.

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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

	07-01-2001 17:33									#52
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I must agree with Kenthur's diagnosis. Funny noises from inside the pc mean that either the HD is reaching the end of its lifetime, or your powersupply fan is starting to go rusty.

Hope you can get the problem fixed in time...I have a feeling Civ3 might be around the corner once this game is finished.

P.S

Before I forget: Best wishes for the new year!

	08-01-2001 01:39									#53
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ken, Cap - The sounds go away after a while. However, I will be bringing the tower to my tech shop Monday (after back-up of flies to a CD). I'm not a hands-on hardware type of person.

	08-01-2001 01:52									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

OK, here is the game. If you are interested, state so (and the 1st and 2nd choice for the Civ you would prefer). If there are more than 7 interested Players, I will just have to choose (there were 15, earlier).

Game sessions are scheduled for Sundays, 4 p.m. to
7 p.m. Eastern US Time.

Settings: King, Villages Only, 1x1x moves, 7 Human civs, no AI

Map: Large (75x120), premade (but no players to
have seen map), starting positions preset. No huts

Turns: Simultaneous, timer set at 10 minutes to
allow negotiations. Unlimited time upon request
by 3 players.

War: Rules for controlled warfare and required
declarations of war are too cumbersome for
reasonable play. However, Diplo games are not
essentially warfare games, and it is expected that
other Players will act to halt and/or punish
unjustified or overly aggressive warfare.

Gifts: Wonders and caravans may not be gifted.

Bribery: Units, yes; cities, no.

Cities: Each Civ may have a maximum of 30 cities. No Civ may be reduced to fewer than 5 cities. The purpose is playing, not eliminating.

Alliances: It is expected that alliances will shift according to changing game conditions. Therefore, Players should not enter into Strategic Alliances.

Winning: Getting to A/C is an absolute win and the PG will determine the remaining standings. If A/C is not achieved by 2020, the PG will determine the order of success.

Any major problems, ommissions, objections, or suggestions?

	08-01-2001 02:16									#55
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Count me in. I'd like either the Americans or the Celts (hehe, which will actually be the Irish).

I'm not overly fond of powergraph ratings. I realize that stating this fact is not of any importance if I don't also state a possible alternative. What would everyone think of having a neutral outside party look at the save and determine rankings (or the winner if no AC)

AD

	08-01-2001 02:28									#56
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

English for me

	08-01-2001 03:04									#57
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If Barbarians are set to villages only and you have no huts, will barbarians every show up?

King level seems soft. As does the barbarian setting. You will not have much trouble with happiness or defense. This would make the game less challenging. I prefer Diety, but Emperor would force some early happiness issues. Restless tribes would force defense of cities, with units other than token warriors.

Will the premade map equalize productive squares to some extent? The standard map is hard on any tribe in the southern hemisphere.

On the standard map, America is rich in productive land, so I would love to be the American tribe. If they are unavailable, I will take the French.

Actually I think we should leave the Americans and Aztecs out of it, and then one goal of the game would be to settle the new world. This would let us share the good land of Americas.

Other rules are fine with me.

Were you planning on beginning next Sunday the 14th?

I am on Mac OS, so I will not be able to host a simul game.

	08-01-2001 03:53									#58
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Leaving the Americans out so we can discover the new world is an excellent idea.

Assuming we do this, I'll keep the Celts as my first choice and take the Germans as my second.

AD

	08-01-2001 05:09									#59
	Remove this text

This won't be on a real world map, so there won't be any concerns about historically poor (or advantageous) starting positions. There will be plenty of empty land to explore, though.

	08-01-2001 05:15									#60
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We do, however, need a mapmaker who will not be playing in the game. If you (or someone you know does) make maps, please contact me at "cavebear@erols.com" (or ICQ 37552809) to compare maps and discuss one following the guidelines of this game.