10-06-2005 04:39									#91
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Nope, that wasn't my point.

I know that wasn't your point. However, it is the logical conclusion of your argument. The fact that your own arguments stand against you says something...

	10-06-2005 04:43									#92
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun yada yada yada

Those are not political bases. Your political base is gays and liberals. Together these two groups probably constitute about 20% of American society. In addition, there's another 20+% who think gays should be allowed to marry, but don't really care, and can't be arsed to do anything about it. Opposed are some 50+% of the population who are opposed some vehmently.

You don't have the Feds on your side. You don't have the Church on your side. You don't have international pressure on your side. You don't have the Courts on your side.

Unless we see some major radicalization in the next decade or so, which not beyond the realm of possibility, after all the 50s gave us the 60s, not only is nothing going to change, but things could very well get worse. There is sufficient support in the U.S. for a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting gay marriage.

	10-06-2005 04:43									#93
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Not really -- since a civil war would not be justified given that gays do not suffer from discrimination or repression the par that blacks have suffered.



EDIT: cross posting

	10-06-2005 04:44									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I must admit that the prospect of a few million bible-belters killed isn't entirely unattractive.

Unfortunately, not only are they the ones with guns, they are also the ones who know how to use guns and are willing to kill.

	10-06-2005 04:45									#95
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Those are not political bases. Your political base is gays and liberals. Together these two groups probably constitute about 20% of American society. In addition, there's another 20+% who think gays should be allowed to marry, but don't really care, and can't be arsed to do anything about it. Opposed are some 50+% of the population who are opposed some vehmently. You don't have the Feds on your side. You don't have the Church on your side. You don't have international pressure on your side. You don't have the Courts on your side. Unless we see some major radicalization in the next decade or so, which not beyond the realm of possibility, after all the 50s gave us the 60s, not only is nothing going to change, but things could very well get worse. There is sufficient support in the U.S. for a Constitutional Amendment prohibiting gay marriage.

Actually, we do have several religious-based organizations, and a few religious denominations who sympathize with our cause.

	10-06-2005 04:46									#96
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Not really -- since a civil war would not be justified given that gays do not suffer from discrimination or repression the par that blacks have suffered.

That is my point, that frankly, I wouldn't consider any violence worth gay marriage. However, by your argument such would be necessary to achieve it.

	10-06-2005 04:49									#97
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Actually, we do have several religious-based organizations, and a few religious denominations who sympathize with our cause.

Right, liberals. Aside from the Unitarians, what major church is with you?

	10-06-2005 04:50									#98
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Unfortunately, not only are they the ones with guns, they are also the ones who know how to use guns and are willing to kill.

If you're refering to guns in civilian hands, they don't matter.

If you're refering to a Southern dominance in the army (I seem to recall hearing of one), that's a bother.

	10-06-2005 04:50									#99
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Some Episcopalian churches are sympathetic, although thid did create a split among Episcopalians with the conservative churches turning away in disgust.


EDIT: another cross post

	10-06-2005 04:51									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist If you're refering to guns in civilian hands, they don't matter. If you're refering to a Southern dominance in the army (I seem to recall hearing of one), that's a bother.

Not so much, though, given that the North has all the nukes

	10-06-2005 04:54									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Not so much, though, given that the North has all the nukes

I always thought Atlanta looked like a nice place for a radioactive crater.

	10-06-2005 04:55									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I must admit that the prospect of a few million bible-belters killed isn't entirely unattractive.

They most likely have a considerable degree more shootin' hardware and an even more considerable degree of proficiency in the use thereof than do libruls and other such sorts. Not to mention a disproportionately higher representation in military service.

	10-06-2005 04:55									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Not so much, though, given that the North has all the nukes

Crewed by southerners.

	10-06-2005 04:55									#104
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Atlanta is very liberal, actually. It's the rest of Georgia that's scary.

	10-06-2005 04:58									#105
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quote: They most likely have a considerable degree more shootin' hardware and an even more considerable degree of proficiency in the use thereof than do libruls and other such sorts. Not to mention a disproportionately higher representation in military service.

riiiiight. thats why they beat us the last time around in the 60s right? (1860s that is) and you would have to deal with the black and minority southerns in your back yard who wouldnt mind taking some revenge on da masta for over a century of repression.

	10-06-2005 04:58									#106
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I would think that most metropolitan cities in the South are liberal compared to the rest of their respective state.




EDIT: I'm really, really getting tired of cross posting

	10-06-2005 04:59									#107
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat They most likely have a considerable degree more shootin' hardware and an even more considerable degree of proficiency in the use thereof than do libruls and other such sorts. Not to mention a disproportionately higher representation in military service.

Assuming a Souther secession (yes, ) do you really think even the majority of Southerners in the military would side with the South?

Of course, the scenario is so absurd as to defy prediction...

	10-06-2005 05:03									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Of course, the scenario is so absurd as to defy prediction...

QFT!

	10-06-2005 05:05									#109
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun The premise that one should not have a different set of laws for a minority group compared to the rest of society.

You don't have different laws. You have one set of laws that say that mentally competent, adult (or near adult with parental consent), unmarried males can marry mentally competent, adult (or near adult with parental consent), unmarried females.

quote: The premise that just as prohibition against interracial marriage degraded the dignity of a human person, so does prohibition against gays marrying one another.

Nobody gave a flying **** at a rolling doughnut about the "dignity" of miscegenators any more than they gave a flying **** at a rolling doughnut about illicit cohabitators. States simply recognized that law enforcement priorities had moved on and eventually that these laws were silly and inane.

And there sure as hell was no "thou shalt not" biblical prohibition about marrying someone with lighter or darker skin tone than there was about fornicatin', let alone about "man lying with man as with a woman" to influence the Gawd-fearin' folks who aren't ready any time in the next millennium to go beyond decriminalizing sodomy in the privacy of two consenting adult's homes.

quote: The premise that anti-gay amendments are a danger to heterosexuals and the rest of society in that anti-gay amendments violate the sepration of the church and state.

Not in a million years. They'll cite the state interest in promoting marriage and procreation and creating little workers and taxpayers, blah blah blah.

quote: We can increase our political base of support beginning with these premises, along with other significant ones, I'm sure.

If anything, you're in backlash mode now, and a few states even talking about legalizing gay marriage or civil unions has led far more states to strengthen legal bans on it, and more (adoption in Florida, custody rights, etc.)

	10-06-2005 05:07									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Assuming a Souther secession (yes, ) do you really think even the majority of Southerners in the military would side with the South? Of course, the scenario is so absurd as to defy prediction...

I was responding to the suggestion of the desirability of eliminating a few million bible belters.

	10-06-2005 05:09									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia riiiiight. thats why they beat us the last time around in the 60s right? (1860s that is) and you would have to deal with the black and minority southerns in your back yard who wouldnt mind taking some revenge on da masta for over a century of repression.

Uh, dood. Look at a map. A good chunk of the bible belt goes right up the middle of the US, not just dixie. Also look at the post I quoted - that's a hint as to what I was responding to, and I didn't see a hint of the word "southerners" in it.

	10-06-2005 05:10									#112
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[bad joke]

well, they'll all go to heaven, so what do they care? [/bad joke]

	10-06-2005 05:14									#113
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I was responding to the suggestion of the desirability of eliminating a few million bible belters.

Odd then, that you spoke of feasibility, not desirablity.

	10-06-2005 05:14									#114
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quote: Uh, dood. Look at a map. A good chunk of the bible belt goes right up the middle of the US, not just dixie. Also look at the post I quoted - that's a hint as to what I was responding to, and I didn't see a hint of the word "southerners" in it.

im wary of anyone who speaks english with an accent. such as librul hatin suderners and gawd fearin bible thumpers (humpers??)

	10-06-2005 05:16									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Odd then, that you spoke of feasibility, not desirablity.

If one desires the infeasible, what's the point? I'm interested in executable objectives, not wish lists for Santa.

	10-06-2005 05:20									#116
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The South is too disparate to secede now. We can't form a solid block of agreement like we did in 1860.

	10-06-2005 05:24									#117
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell The South is too disparate to secede now.

We run the country. Why would we leave?

	10-06-2005 05:26									#118
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they suck resources off the country. why would they leave?

	10-06-2005 05:27									#119
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You had your chance to avoid this fate but refused.

	10-06-2005 05:29									#120
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If one desires the infeasible, what's the point? I'm interested in executable objectives, not wish lists for Santa.

And what you are interested in is relevant how?