09-06-2005 21:25									#31
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That's unfortunate that they've degenerated to such BS as pulling the activisim card. It's symptomatic of the times.

Have you already resigned? I think if you're going to leave, you should fight your way out instead of let them drive you out slinking. Hell, who knows. Maybe you'll win. You probably aren't the only comrade who feels this way.

I should warn you that once you leave the group, it's unlikely you'll remain political.




Two in one day. Dracon II was an USecer too.

	09-06-2005 21:28									#32
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark IIU Marx correctly, he understood quite well that feudalism was not overhrown by the class it exploited. He posited that the case of capitalism would be different because A: the working class would be by its nature more class conscious and more revolutionary thant the peasants B: The nature of capitilist economy would mean a kind of impoverishment that would make revolution inevitable and C: the nature of capitalist economy would reduce the distinctions within the working class, making revolution more likely

The mistake that he made was B. The economy has changed, like you say, in ways that Marxs didn't envision. But the Marxist theory (post Marx especially) on financial markets is accurate. Capitalism still needs capital accumulation to survive, and capital can not continue to accumulate indefinitely. The error is a timing error.

	09-06-2005 21:30									#33
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun This happens on Apolyton Off-Topic too, with just about any issue. But I'm glad you haven't decided to leave us because of this.

Well, I donīt discuss that much politics anymore. Iīve stopped trying to analyse things, now I just have opinions

	09-06-2005 21:42									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The error is a timing error.

Actually Marx's error was in omission, which Gramsci analyzed: the role of ideology in the continued submission of the proletariat. He also failed to correctly see the evolution of imperialism, and how it would impact the ability of the working clases to sustain themselves at better than minimum levels.

	09-06-2005 21:46									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's unfortunate that they've degenerated to such BS as pulling the activisim card. It's symptomatic of the times. Have you already resigned? I think if you're going to leave, you should fight your way out instead of let them drive you out slinking. Hell, who knows. Maybe you'll win. You probably aren't the only comrade who feels this way. I should warn you that once you leave the group, it's unlikely you'll remain political. Two in one day. Dracon II was an USecer too.

The comrade in question isnīt representative for the party as a whole. But heīs very outspoken and energetic... But I have other issues as well regarding strategies, our place in the swedish left and our identity.

And I havenīt formally resigned. We have the last meeting before the summer break next week. I thought Iīll hand in my formal resignation there.

As far as political activity goes, I havenīt really been that active for the last year and a half. So I guess it wonīt be much of a difference...

	09-06-2005 21:50									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually Marx's error was in omission, which Gramsci analyzed: the role of ideology in the continued submission of the proletariat. He also failed to correctly see the evolution of imperialism, and how it would impact the ability of the working clases to sustain themselves at better than minimum levels.

I think the first one is due to the continued success of capitalism, and the second one is a way that capitalism has been able to be successfull. In whole he missed timed the failure of capitalism. As soon as capitalism fails the working class will form a cohesive.

	09-06-2005 22:28									#37
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Is there a working class per se? I'm not so sure. I think there are gradations that divide workers in discrete levels that are lumped together to form a 'working class'.

I can see much more cohesion among workers in one industry than among workers across different ones.

	09-06-2005 22:49									#38
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The fact that there are different layers and sectors in the working class doesn't mean there isn't one. It just means that simple catagories, while helping us approach understanding, do not correctly model the dynamics and complexities of reality. One of the traps that many Marxists have fallen into is mistaking simple models for complex reality, a vey unMarxist mistake.

	09-06-2005 22:54									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Zoidberg The comrade in question isnīt representative for the party as a whole. But heīs very outspoken and energetic... But I have other issues as well regarding strategies, our place in the swedish left and our identity. And I havenīt formally resigned. We have the last meeting before the summer break next week. I thought Iīll hand in my formal resignation there. As far as political activity goes, I havenīt really been that active for the last year and a half. So I guess it wonīt be much of a difference...

Comrade, don't let depression dictate your decision. The fact that you have disagreements isn't the sign of a problem, but the sign of a healthy organization. Vive la difference! If we never disagreed, we'd all be in cults, not parties.

You should try and articulate your differences, what you think the problems are. You don't have to come up with solutions or even a perfect formulation of the problem if you can start a discussion.

Don't let *******s drive you away from politics.

I've gone through periods where I couldn't be active because it took all my energy just to get out of bed and go to work. Don't give up your connection to poltiical life, even such as it is, because once severed, it is nearly always permanent.

	09-06-2005 23:07									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It seems that the far right in Sweden is much lefter than what passes for the left in the US.

It's worth noting that the Swedish far right is way left of the moderate right.

	09-06-2005 23:10									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The fact that there are different layers and sectors in the working class doesn't mean there isn't one. It just means that simple catagories, while helping us approach understanding, do not correctly model the dynamics and complexities of reality. One of the traps that many Marxists have fallen into is mistaking simple models for complex reality, a vey unMarxist mistake.

On the whole I would agree with this.

	09-06-2005 23:11									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Is there a working class per se? I'm not so sure. I think there are gradations that divide workers in discrete levels that are lumped together to form a 'working class'. I can see much more cohesion among workers in one industry than among workers across different ones.

The working class is segmented because of different political and economic interests. Political and economic reality must change in order for the whole working class to have similar political and economic interests.

	10-06-2005 00:08									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The fact that there are different layers and sectors in the working class doesn't mean there isn't one. It just means that simple catagories, while helping us approach understanding, do not correctly model the dynamics and complexities of reality. One of the traps that many Marxists have fallen into is mistaking simple models for complex reality, a vey unMarxist mistake.

How do you define working class, just people who work, or people with similar political interests, because people who work have different political interests.

	10-06-2005 00:19									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara

The mainstream, moderate right is basically your standard European liberals, with a smattering of consies and hoary agrarians thrown in. They want to scale down the welfare state.

The far right (=neonazis, nationalist populists, etc) generally wants to maintain or even extend the welfare state, except they want it only to help native-born Swedes. They're unconcerned with or hostile to most forms of economic liberalization.

The right's also got a tiny libertarian fringe, but no-one cares about them (when the left decries "neoliberals", they usually mean the moderate right, or even the social democrats), and no-one would refer to them as "far right".

	10-06-2005 01:03									#46
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Comrade, don't let depression dictate your decision. The fact that you have disagreements isn't the sign of a problem, but the sign of a healthy organization. Vive la difference! If we never disagreed, we'd all be in cults, not parties. You should try and articulate your differences, what you think the problems are. You don't have to come up with solutions or even a perfect formulation of the problem if you can start a discussion. Don't let *******s drive you away from politics. I've gone through periods where I couldn't be active because it took all my energy just to get out of bed and go to work. Don't give up your connection to poltiical life, even such as it is, because once severed, it is nearly always permanent.

The thing is Iīm not sure we even need a party at this stage in the class struggle. By defining ourselves as a party weīre giving an impression that we are something we arenīt. And more importantly, we fool ourselves, thus making us act in a way that squanders our meager resources. And Sweden are a bit special when it comes to far left politics due to the overwhelming influence of the social democrats and reformed communist party. The room to manoeuver is therefore pretty small...

Iīm pretty sure I can keep myself occupied with politics even if Iīm not in a party. I could join Attac again, or go back to the enviromental movement. Thereīs always something to do

	10-06-2005 03:51									#47
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As long as you keep the faith, comrade.

	10-06-2005 04:49									#48
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes they do, but can you conceive of capitalism without workers?

Sure, it's called "outsourcing".

	10-06-2005 04:51									#49
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There are still workers, they're just someplace else, not even necessarily in another country. When I was working in Chicago for a market research agency, we outsourced some of our call staff to Dixon, IL (teh Reagan's hometown).

	10-06-2005 05:19									#50
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark is this really a party thing, or a life cycle thing?

It's a life-cycle thing. Predicted here, I might add.

	10-06-2005 05:40									#51
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I mock you and the two months you have on me, old man.

	10-06-2005 05:51									#52
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I mock myself.

Come, join in the mocking!

<-----

	10-06-2005 05:54									#53
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No I won't. I'll mock Dr Z for being a commie, instead.

	10-06-2005 05:54									#54
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But that's the point of this thread. He's no longer a Communist.

	10-06-2005 05:56									#55
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Well, he is, he's just going to quit being in a party.

	10-06-2005 05:58									#56
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He's still a communist JohnT. Your theory is bunk.

	10-06-2005 05:58									#57
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quote: Well, he is, he's just going to quit being in a party.

Same thing, isn't it:

quote: I should warn you that once you leave the group, it's unlikely you'll remain political.

?

	10-06-2005 05:59									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious He's still a communist JohnT. Your theory is bunk.

Sez the Communist Accountant.

	10-06-2005 05:59									#59
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Argh, hoisted on my own petard!

	10-06-2005 06:01									#60
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As long as you keep the faith, comrade.

You say that ironically, but it's still rather revealing...