10-06-2005 21:42									#1
	What is the actual cause for population growth? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

In the Civilization games, the more food you have, the faster your population growth; well we all know that isn't quite true in the real world.


So what is the main cause of population growth?

What was it like 10,000 years ago? Why did they have children? To work the land? Did they have many children or just 1 or 2?

Throughout the ages what has caused population growth exactly? Did the advanced Civilizations (such as the romans) have many children? Or just the underdeveloped civilizations?


Does the amount of food available have any effect at all? I seem to recall that starving African countries are overpopulated, yet they have no food; is this true?

This is not a civ question or a game question, but I'm curious, if you had to make the game Civilization realistic, how would you design population growth?

	10-06-2005 21:44									#2
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Possibly the surrounding employment/wealth/health/safety levels of a region being at a premium...

	10-06-2005 21:47									#3
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1) women's rights, work oppertunities for women
2) available money/capital/resources

	10-06-2005 21:49									#4
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Interesting question. Also, on a side note, I heard that in order for a population to be considered "growing' that each family must have 2.1 kids... I believe that it's was 2.1 kids/per every two people or something like that, and that Europe is around 1.5 and is therefore shrinking!

Is that true?

And, I don't think any Europeans are starving. At the same time Americans are fat lazy bastards and we aren't growing out of proportion.

I think that when people switched from nomads to settlers due to the technology they realized the more hands to work the fields and hunt meant more "wealth", but it also meant more "freetime" which in the day before TV must have meant sex, which would get you kids as well.

	10-06-2005 21:50									#5
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people ****ing, duh

	10-06-2005 21:53									#6
	Re: What is the actual cause for population growth? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Sn00py Does the amount of food available have any effect at all? I seem to recall that starving African countries are overpopulated, yet they have no food; is this true?

Starving African countries aren't starving all the time. It's simply impossible to have more people than you can feed on a long term basis. Normally not only can Africa feed itself, but it can feed Europe as well. The problem is in years when there is drought or locusts, etc., then Africa can only feed one continent, and guess which one has more money to buy scarce food. Even during the Somolian famine, Somolia was exporting food.

	10-06-2005 21:59									#7
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara people ****ing, duh

	10-06-2005 22:14									#8
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So really, having children is not something that the government can control directly.

Population growth is caused by how a couple feel about having children.

But I wonder how many were mistakes and how many were born from prostitution or similar.

	10-06-2005 22:17									#9
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Would be parents make the final decision based on a number of economic and social factors. Politics comes in to pay by creating incentives or disincentives, though the PRC has forced some to have abortions.

	10-06-2005 22:18									#10
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Why is the population growth negative in Italy?

No one gets married!

I think today it has something to do with family values, and not just fornication. Do ppl have sex and not have kids? Of course. People adopt for this reason as well, and adoption is tough from what I hear.

Mistakes I think are fewer, and I think that in most cases the mistake turns out to be more of a surprise.

	10-06-2005 22:21									#11
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The supply of food did at one time constrain population growth. That stopped with the industrialization of agriculture which has caused the exponential growth in population. Now population is increasing even though people are having less children because there is such a large base. It will decline when the large generations start to die off.

	10-06-2005 22:24									#12
	Re: What is the actual cause for population growth? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Sn00py I Throughout the ages what has caused population growth exactly? Did the advanced Civilizations (such as the romans) have many children? Or just the underdeveloped civilizations?

A primary cause would be new types of food, or new farming methods.

But perhaps more importantly are death rates. China has a large population because it was relatively stable and peaceful for 2,000-odd years.

A society engaged in long-term warfare has less ability to feed itself and more people dying which affects the logirithmic (correct word?) population increase.

	10-06-2005 22:24									#13
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The main cause for the population explosion hasn't been the increase in the food supply, but rather the increase in sanitation and health care. More people are surviving infancy and reaching old age. If you look at many 3rd world countries, the population is more than half youth. Family planning hasn't caught up to more children surviving.

On top of this, you have the pernicious effects of religions telling people to have as many children as they possibly can and opposing birth control.

	10-06-2005 22:27									#14
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quote: 1) women's rights, work oppertunities for women

Actually, that tends to result in a population decline, and has one of the strongest correlations with population decline.

quote: 2) available money/capital/resources

Not really. The wealthier you are, the less you have to rely upon children to take care of you, and the fewer you need to have to ensure that they will support you.

The poorer you are, often results in just the opposite, that you put everything you have into your kids, who then take care of you when you get older.

Also, if you know that having 3 kids, means 3 kids live to adulthood, then you are less likely to have more than 3 kids. If their future is less certain, then it won't make sense to only have 3.

	10-06-2005 22:27									#15
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You're right Che. I'm 30 and there is only one person younger in than me in our birthing class, and that's my wife.

Not only are people living longer, they are also having kids later in life... Also, deaths at birth have been reduce due to better birthing procedures and practices during pregnancy. I was reading a book writen in the 30s that said that you should quit smoking when pregnant as it causes undo stress.

	10-06-2005 22:30									#16
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The health of the average individual, and the way it impacts their lifespan.

Nutritious food, reasonable work conditions, sanitation, comfortable housing and the rest are merely factors that influence health.

Of course, we aren't about to intentionally cut the average the lifespan, so we have to solve the population growth crisis by appealing to human intelligence rather than human nature. The best way of doing is that is by educating and intellectually stimulating as many people of all classes, genders, sexes, creeds, religions, and sexes as possible.

	10-06-2005 22:30									#17
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quote: So what is the main cause of population growth?

Decline in infant mortality.

quote: What was it like 10,000 years ago? Why did they have children? To work the land? Did they have many children or just 1 or 2?

Most of the time, they would have had many more children then just one or 2.

quote: Throughout the ages what has caused population growth exactly? Did the advanced Civilizations (such as the romans) have many children? Or just the underdeveloped civilizations?

One of the causes of the decline of the Roman empire, was their decline in relative population growth.

quote: Does the amount of food available have any effect at all? I seem to recall that starving African countries are overpopulated, yet they have no food; is this true?

The reason they are said to be overpopulated, is because of their food production relative to their population. But their overall population density, is much smaller than other areas in the developed world, (Canada and Australia are exceptions)

	10-06-2005 22:32									#18
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quote: Actually, that tends to result in a population decline, and has one of the strongest correlations with population decline.

yeah i know, thats why i listed it. lack of womens rights means more children.

quote: Not really. The wealthier you are, the less you have to rely upon children to take care of you, and the fewer you need to have to ensure that they will support you. The poorer you are, often results in just the opposite, that you put everything you have into your kids, who then take care of you when you get older. Also, if you know that having 3 kids, means 3 kids live to adulthood, then you are less likely to have more than 3 kids. If their future is less certain, then it won't make sense to only have 3.

poor people spend less capital per kid, but have more kids. rich people have less kids, but spend more on each of them. (poor as in 3rd world, rich as in 1st world.) less resources also means more of the kids die young, so you need to have more in order to have a family. (which is what you said) its just a trade off. poor people have less oppertunity cost to having kids, so they have more (which takes up more of their time)

	10-06-2005 22:34									#19
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara people ****ing, duh

	10-06-2005 22:35									#20
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quote: [SIZE=1] At the same time Americans are fat lazy bastards and we aren't growing out of proportion.

I am 5'9" and I weigh 150lbs. I work my ass off every day, and have goals in life that I want to achieve. One of them being a huge family. I am an American.

So STFU!

	10-06-2005 22:35									#21
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quote: Interesting question. Also, on a side note, I heard that in order for a population to be considered "growing' that each family must have 2.1 kids... I believe that it's was 2.1 kids/per every two people or something like that, and that Europe is around 1.5 and is therefore shrinking! Is that true?

Yes, and UN estimates, indicate that the world population will be in decline by 2050. Earlier if their minimum projections are correct.

	10-06-2005 22:36									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Why is the population growth negative in Italy?

because they aren't having 2.1 births per female there.

	10-06-2005 22:52									#23
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quote: I am 5'9" and I weigh 150lbs. I work my ass off every day, and have goals in life that I want to achieve. One of them being a huge family. I am an American. So STFU!

I'm an American too (in case you forgot).. I just make blanket generalizations about myself so I can do it to others without being labeled a hypocrit... So CALM DOWN!!!

	10-06-2005 22:53									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Why is the population growth negative in Italy?

But it's not negative, admittedly 1.5% growth over a decade isn't exactly fast (even by european standards) but there are still over a million more italians today than a decade ago.

I thought it was only evil commies who made up statistics to prove their points?

	10-06-2005 22:58									#25
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I didn't make up any statistics... where did I give any numbers? I, for one, want more Italians... especially if they look like Monica Beluci

	10-06-2005 23:02									#26
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I'm not having kids, my selfish genes can go jump in a lake. I just wish there were a lot more people with the same idea...

	10-06-2005 23:05									#27
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Birth rates, death rates, immigration and emigration. Of course, each of these have their own set of causes as well.

	10-06-2005 23:06									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I didn't make up any statistics... where did I give any numbers?

Well you claimed that Italy's population was falling.

Either you just made that up without bothering to check, or you actually think that 56.44m is larger than 57.48m.

So which do you have the trouble with, telling the truth or simple mathematics?

	10-06-2005 23:07									#29
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara people ****ing, duh

When there is no food, the babies won't live long...Duh!

(commies, pah!)

	10-06-2005 23:08									#30
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I think accurately it would be both increase in the food supply and better sanitation taken together, which have caused the exponential population growth. Neither one could have caused it alone.