13-06-2005 06:52									#91
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: Seems fair since the left is doing their best to demonize him They needn't bother. .

Yep.

	13-06-2005 07:00									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ming I also respected Bush Sr... the world knew what to expect from him, and damn, they respected him as well.

what he had which both his son and Tony Blah lack is oodles of foreign policy experience. he also happened to have served his country in war so when the hawks like cheney said let's go to Baghdad he wisely said no.

I liked him a lot. A sort of patrician conservative with old fashioned values. Its a shame the repubs went down market. Guys like Bush snr seem to mainly hang out in the senate these days.

One old repub senator gave a brilliant speech about how the administration had lost touch with traditional conservative values, I forget one, Bird perhaps?

I'd never vote for any of them mind, but i respect my opponents

	13-06-2005 07:02									#93
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I have no love for Republicans, but I respect George Bush Sr for the simple fact that he knew what he was doing. He must be privately horrified at what's going on now.

Bush Jr. didn't even bother asking his father about his opinion on invading Iraq, according to Bob Woodward:

Did Mr. Bush ask his father for any advice? “I asked the president about this. And President Bush said, ‘Well, no,’ and then he got defensive about it,” says Woodward. “Then he said something that really struck me. He said of his father, ‘He is the wrong father to appeal to for advice. The wrong father to go to, to appeal to in terms of strength.’ And then he said, ‘There's a higher Father that I appeal to.’"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004...ain612067.shtml

For details on the people whom Bush did rely upon for Iraq advice: The Night After

	13-06-2005 07:05									#94
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The last part of the interview includes a statement that struck me as a sign that Bush has a premonition that his war will end in apocalyptic disaster:

“After the second interview with him on Dec. 11, we got up and walked over to one of the doors. There are all of these doors in the Oval Office that lead outside. And he had his hands in his pocket, and I just asked, ‘Well, how is history likely to judge your Iraq war,’” says Woodward.

“And he said, ‘History,’ and then he took his hands out of his pocket and kind of shrugged and extended his hands as if this is a way off. And then he said, ‘History, we don’t know. We’ll all be dead.’”

	13-06-2005 07:06									#95
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yeah... I feel sorry for Powell. It must have been like living in an asylum.

	13-06-2005 07:16									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Powell is a tragic figure.

He and Schwarzkopf amongst others made it their life mission to rebuild the US army after the Vietnam debacle and they lived to see the fine army they created sent into yet another quagmire.

	13-06-2005 07:19									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: He and Schwarzkopf amongst others made it their life mission to rebuild the US army after the Vietnam debacle and they lived to see the fine army they created sent into yet another quagmire.

On the bright side, it's America, so he can get paid millions for signing his name to a book complaining about it.

	13-06-2005 07:24									#98
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

as did Schwarzkopf, but the fact remains their life's work is in ruins and I'm sure neither of them is happy about it.

	13-06-2005 07:29									#99
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This too will pass.

What's the general consensus from diplos you know? I know a guy who was quite high in the Canadian diplomatic service and he keeps in contact with all his old pals. They all think Shrub and co are nuts, including many American diplomats.

	13-06-2005 07:40									#100
	Put an end to popups!

Definitley, the story of Powell is a modern tragedy in every sense of the word.

If I was the next President, the very FIRST thing I would do would be to bring Powell, Bush Sr., and Clinton into my office and ask for their help in figuring this mess out. Also Swarzkopf.

I would of course understand if they didn't want to get involved, seeing as how big the mess is. And how all 3 of them warned against invading Baghdad because of the very thing that has happened.

	13-06-2005 07:42									#101
	Support Apolyton

The problem is that there doesn't seem to be enough desire to back down from this silly hegemony thing in either party.

The Democrats are basically bent and ineffectual, and the Repugs are too scared of the religious people.

	13-06-2005 07:43									#102
	Remove this text

The real cause of this war was sustained strong support for it by the US public. As far as the American politics of this goes, Bush Sr made a mistake by not fully taking care of business the first time we sent everybody over there. What kind of weakling of a president plays the Hitler card and then allows Hitler to keep power? In hindsight, that was a profound mistake. I didn't support Gulf War I, but once we got into it, I supported the finishing of it. We had the means in place to finish it then.

I disagree with Ming in part that Bush Jr lied about this. I think Bush believed that Saddam had WMD, but that proof was scarce. In this case, trying to find intelligence to bolster the case for WMD makes sense. I was surprised that our intelligence system is so poor and could not give better background on what was going on over there.

But I agree with Ming in that the war wasn't about WMD even though that was the justification offered. Bush Jr got millions more votes after the justification turned out false than he got the first time on the ballot...

	13-06-2005 07:43									#103
	Remove this text

Agathon,

You're right.

We're stuck in a political quagmire.

It's very discouraging. There has to be SOMEBODY that can step up.

Even Howard Dean backed off some comments he made this week when he said how dishonest the Administration was. I was like, "of all people, you would think DEAN would stand up to them."

	13-06-2005 07:48									#104
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: The real cause of this war was sustained strong support for it by the US public. As far as the American politics of this goes, Bush Sr made a mistake by not fully taking care of business the first time we sent everybody over there. What kind of weakling of a president plays the Hitler card and then allows Hitler to keep power?

The reason why is clearly stated in his book: he was not an incompetent idiot. If the US had actually done that in 1991 it would have lost all credibility with Arab nations and with most of the third world. The UN is built on the inviolability of member states – deposing Saddam would have been committing the same crime he was guilty of.

GW1 was a masterful piece of diplomacy and one which increased trust in the US by almost every member of the UN. Invading Iraq would have destroyed that credibility outside of English speaking countries.

Why is it that you choose to ignore reality when making such comments?

	13-06-2005 07:51									#105
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My nominations for next President:


Caeser Augustus
Abraham Lincoln
Jesus Christ

	13-06-2005 07:54									#106
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: The reason why is clearly stated in his book: he was not an incompetent idiot. If the US had actually done that in 1991 it would have lost all credibility with Arab nations and with most of the third world. The UN is built on the inviolability of member states – deposing Saddam would have been committing the same crime he was guilty of. GW1 was a masterful piece of diplomacy and one which increased trust in the US by almost every member of the UN. Invading Iraq would have destroyed that credibility outside of English speaking countries.

It may have been great politics generally globally, but it was a profound mistake to whip up American public opinion and then not follow through on what he implicitly promised them.

Again, what kind of president plays the Hitler card and then allow Hitler to keep power? I don't think he was a good president. I don't think he had a good feeling of what the American people wanted. I have great respect for him, on the other hand.

	13-06-2005 07:57									#107
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Agathon, You're right. We're stuck in a political quagmire. It's very discouraging. There has to be SOMEBODY that can step up.

Who? Anyone who does will be labelled as anti-American and someone who wishes to kow tow to the UN and let countries like Iran, Syria and Zaire have a say in US policy (as if the alternative wouldn't be having to fight them which is more expensive).

Even a moderate like McCain will be forced to the right if he is elected. Hillary is starting to say dumb things as well. The whole Israel thing is a political hot potato (Clinton now looks incredibly daring for attempting to sort it out).

Much of middle America is so convinced that the "liberal" establishment is going to ban the bible or force them to be ****ed up the ass by gays that they have ceased to pay any real attention to what's going on. As long as the government is killing some A-rabs to get even for 9/11 that's OK with them. The fact that half of them still believe Saddam was responsible for 9/11 shows that a significant and important part of the electorate has basically ceased trying to find out the facts. Even the (divergent) opinions on gay marriage in Canada are at least largely held by people who understand the facts of the case. I wish that were the same as the US and foreign policy.

More to the point: I can't see how the US dollar can continue to hold its value. If that goes bang I can see American elites attempting to shift the blame to Europeans and Asians with god knows what consequences. Whatever happens, you can be sure they won't blame it on their own reckless spending.

	13-06-2005 07:57									#108
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker My nominations for next President: Caeser Augustus Abraham Lincoln Jesus Christ

Here's how the Republicans would attack the candidacy of Jesus Christ:

	13-06-2005 07:58									#109
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Who? Anyone who does will be labelled as anti-American and someone who wishes to kow tow to the UN and let countries like Iran, Syria and Zaire have a say in US policy (as if the alternative wouldn't be having to fight them which is more expensive). Even a moderate like McCain will be forced to the right if he is elected. Hillary is starting to say dumb things as well. The whole Israel thing is a political hot potato (Clinton now looks incredibly daring for attempting to sort it out). Much of middle America is so convinced that the "liberal" establishment is going to ban the bible or force them to be ****ed up the ass by gays that they have ceased to pay any real attention to what's going on. As long as the government is killing some A-rabs to get even for 9/11 that's OK with them. The fact that half of them still believe Saddam was responsible for 9/11 shows that a significant and important part of the electorate has basically ceased trying to find out the facts. Even the (divergent) opinions on gay marriage in Canada are at least largely held by people who understand the facts of the case. I wish that were the same as the US and foreign policy. More to the point: I can't see how the US dollar can continue to hold its value. If that goes bang I can see American elites attempting to shift the blame to Europeans and Asians with god knows what consequences. Whatever happens, you can be sure they won't blame it on their own reckless spending.

	13-06-2005 07:58									#110
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: It may have been great politics generally globally, but it was a profound mistake to whip up American public opinion and then not follow through on what he implicitly promised them.

Frankly, he knew that American public opinion is less important than keeping the world order stable. He was right, I don't see how you could say the opposite.

	13-06-2005 07:59									#111
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer Here's how the Republicans would attack the candidacy of Jesus Christ:

	13-06-2005 08:00									#112
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Agathon quote: It may have been great politics generally globally, but it was a profound mistake to whip up American public opinion and then not follow through on what he implicitly promised them. Frankly, he knew that American public opinion is less important than keeping the world order stable. He was right, I don't see how you could say the opposite.

I guess you could say the Bush 2 strategy is sort of a canniblizing one. Unfortunatley I don't see it ever running out of food.

It just seems to get fatter the more it eats.

	13-06-2005 08:07									#113
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think that American public life was a lot more open when Bush was in charge. Nothing like the 60s and 70s, but more open than now. Both parties have now moved to the right and have little or nothing in common with ordinary people other than that the Republicans pretend that they are conducting a sort of cultural class warfare against the liberal democratic-voting elite (you know - people like blacks and poor folk).

	13-06-2005 08:08									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Frankly, he knew that American public opinion is less important than keeping the world order stable. He was right, I don't see how you could say the opposite.

You must not have been paying attention the last several years on what I and a lot of other Americans on Poly have been concluding. In hindsight, I don't think keeping the world order stable was more important.

	13-06-2005 08:18									#115
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by DanS You must not have been paying attention the last several years on what I and a lot of other Americans on Poly have been concluding. In hindsight, I don't think keeping the world order stable was more important.

Oh sure... we've been listening. We just think that you're full of crap.

	13-06-2005 08:59									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: In hindsight, I don't think keeping the world order stable was more important.

Agreed. The old world order has been falling apart on its own ever since the Soviet Union fell. The Bush administration had a choice between continuing to prop up an ever more untenable status quo or using America's global weight to influence how the next world order will take shape, hopefully in our favor. I think they made the right call, even if I don't approve of many of the details of their execution.

	13-06-2005 09:09									#117
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DanS The real cause of this war was sustained strong support for it by the US public.

Whipped up by very shortsighted demagogery and populist policy. It was all calculated. The war on terror is a joke. Terror alerts in Hoboken?

	13-06-2005 09:41									#118
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Ming quote: You have no idea what the effects of the magnitude of this lie have had, otherwise you would be pissed too. I'm pissed... but I'm pised at the war. You don't seem to be listening. If he had just said DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM, he probably would have sold the war anyway... so the lie really DOESN'T matter. That's the point. And as far as the worst in 50 years... I guess you are to young to remember Viet Nam

No, only WMD was a strong enough issue and that's the sad part. If Bush had proposed ridding Iraq of Saddam on the basis of Democracy and Freedom the Democrats would have made it a partisan issue and there would have been absolutely no agreement instead of limited agreement to proceed.

More important there would have been no "coalition of the willing" because nobody is willing to stick their necks out. Bush could have argued justly that Saddam's disregard for the terms of surrender was a genuine cassus belli but it would have fallen on deaf ears.

I still don't think this memo or anything else presented to date amounts to a falsification of intelligence. To date the only falsified intelligence was supplied by Italy. There was reasonable doubt that UN presence eliminated Saddam's ability to research and manufacture of WMDs.

I'm not pissed at the war or the lack of "exit strategy." There is only one exit strategy possible, whether in Iraq or Afghanistan. When that government decides it can handle the "bad guys" without us we'll go.

The truth is that neither democracy nor freedom can be pressed upon a people. It is a huge risk, politically, because Iraq may not be stable enough with or without US presence for democracy to survive when another strong man comes to the fore.

	13-06-2005 09:52									#119
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Whipped up by very shortsighted demagogery and populist policy. It was all calculated. The war on terror is a joke. Terror alerts in Hoboken?

You misunderstand me. The support for military action against Saddam Hussein to remove him from power was a steady 62% for 11 years before Bush Jr decided to do it.

	13-06-2005 09:59									#120
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Here's how the Republicans would attack the candidacy of Jesus Christ:

Heartbreakingly funny. It's too bad politics has given up the search for the best candidate and has devolved into a mud wrestling contest.