13-06-2005 04:17									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Talk about pissing in the wind Do you deny the holocaust too?

Really a weird and illogical conclusion - if you doubt, take a look at second post from bottom here :

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...30&pagenumber=6

What I was commenting was a pretty poorly written summary from a meeting. Despite the fact that is so bad, the usual critics of the Iraq war take it litterally and claims that it is proof of the evil behind.

	13-06-2005 04:24									#62
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Evil or no evil, it is documented evidence that he lied and deceived...

	13-06-2005 04:31									#63
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And it's not just a "oh, he got a few facts confused," it's a "good lawd he went out of his way to do it."

	13-06-2005 04:37									#64
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I guess Bush is the first politician that has ever lied...

Hmmmm... now that I think of it, every president I can remember has lied as well...

Hmmmm... and so has just about every other world leader...

I'm not a big fan of Bush, and I wish the republicans could come up with better candidates... but face it folks... politicians lie all the time. This hand wringing like it's the first time a president has ever lied is kind of silly.
Yeah, it's wrong... but some people must be living in fantasy land if they think it's a rare occurance for a world leader to lie... Clinton was equally as bad, and so was Bush senior... Reagan... Nixon... Kennedy... Carter was probably the only one close to being honest

	13-06-2005 04:41									#65
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It's not like he was just lying about getting a blow job. He lied about his desires to go to war then deliberately decieved everyone in order to go on his personal crusade. What's worse is he knowingly doctored the evidence and now tries to blame the CIA for his own actions.

We're orders of magnitude above anything since Nixon's outright criminal activities.

	13-06-2005 04:42									#66
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Ming, while the spirit of what you say is true, it doesn't make it right.

And on top of that, which scenario would you prefer:

1) The President lying to his own people to take them into an indefinite, EXPENSIVE war

2) The President lying about getting his dick sucked in the White House


The magnitude of this lie is beyond proportion

EDIT: Oerdin got it first

	13-06-2005 04:51									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I guess Bush is the first politician that has ever lied... Hmmmm... now that I think of it, every president I can remember has lied as well... Hmmmm... and so has just about every other world leader... I'm not a big fan of Bush, and I wish the republicans could come up with better candidates... but face it folks... politicians lie all the time. This hand wringing like it's the first time a president has ever lied is kind of silly. Yeah, it's wrong... but some people must be living in fantasy land if they think it's a rare occurance for a world leader to lie... Clinton was equally as bad, and so was Bush senior... Reagan... Nixon... Kennedy... Carter was probably the only one close to being honest

And how does your 'well he did it too!' justification make it any better. It certainly ranks as being far more worrying than some random sexual misdemeanour I don't give a flying f**k about quite frankly. But this is certainly not a private issue, it is an issue that has cost countless thousands of lives...and for what? And on what grounds?

	13-06-2005 04:53									#68
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I didn't say it was right... And Clinton threw a couple of cruise missles around to take the mind of the media off of his BJ's... but I guess you are forgetting that as well.. Was it wrong... sure. But oh, this is a bigger a lie... so it's worse... ALL politicians tell the BIG lies... If it wasn't WOMD, he would have pinned his war on some other story. He would have been better off sticking to the "Free the Iraqi" line... but his spinsters didn't think that would be enough. He was going to war regardless... and anybody that didn't have that figured out wasn't seeing reality. The fact that he choose to hang it on WOMD vs Democracy and Freedom was a bad mistake... he probably could have gotten away with the latter if he had put as much effort into as the WOMD argument. And frankly, that's why many americans don't really care. It's a done deal... Sure, his opponents would like to use it to attack him... no surprise there... and sure, the war has been an expensive one, and it sucks... But to cry like stuck pigs because of a president lying/shading the truth to sell something he was going to do anyway... seems like a waste of time. Our efforts would be better spent trying to do something about now and the future, instead of running around like headless chickens because a president was lying. Nothing you can do will keep Bush or future presidents (and any other world leader) from lying to push their agenda... remember, they are politicians.

	13-06-2005 05:02									#69
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You're trying to spin this into a political issue, like it's just his opponents using it to attack him for political purposes. Like people are criticizing him so "their guy" can look better.

Well you know what? This goes BEYOND politics. It's morally reprehensible what we did. We invaded another country. And we turned a blind eye to it. Politics be damned.

This man would be brought up on war crimes if it was in another country.

But I guess in your book the magnitude of the situation doesn't matter. "It's just another lie."

Those cruise missles were fired and that was the end of it. And one of those attacks WAS justified. The one in Sudan was not.

Even if you take away all the lying, the execution of the invasion was outright incompetent. All the military generals told the idiot what to expect and he ignored all of them. The political cost is way too high.

We shouldn't "just accept it," because he was going to do it no matter what.

We had the entire world behind us after 9/11, and because of this idiot using the situation to justify the attack on Iraq, now we are laughing stock to the rest of the world.

And THAT is why the lie is even worse.

This has been one of the worse mistakes in the history of our country.

	13-06-2005 05:09									#70
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You are welcome to your opinin... While I don't condone it... it happened. And things like this have happened in the past, and will happen again.

Yeah... we went to war. That is the real issue here.
But everybody seems to be pointing at the lie.
As I said, he probably could have gotten away with it if he had just said DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM... So yeah, he made a big mistake. But it doesn't change the fact that the war was going to happen. The lie isn't really THE KEY issue. But feel free to continue to rant and rave like politicians don't do it all the time... and over the big issues as well... and keep thinking that Clinton was a saint... and that all his lies were only small ones... and that other world leaders don't tell the big lies as welll...

If that's what makes you happy...

	13-06-2005 05:12									#71
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Your complete apathy towards the situation is very shocking.

Do you not see how far down the slope we are sliding?

Do you think it's just business as usual?


Murder happens. It's going to happen, people always murder. But according to Ming we shouldn't be outraged about it.

Hey, **** happens.

	13-06-2005 05:20									#72
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It's not apathy... you are the one ignoring reality.

Did the war end up bad... YES!
Did they have an exit plan... NO!
Could they have done it better... YES!
Should we have gone to war... NO!

Does the way that a politician sells his agenda change any of that... NO!

So you can try to twist my words... but you seem to twisting your panties in a knot because a world leader actually lied. So did Clinton... and other world leaders.

I would agree that we should shoot all the politicians... but you seem to want to shoot only one.

	13-06-2005 05:27									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Carter was probably the only one close to being honest

We had a similar discussion a couple of years ago. I went back thru the U.S. Presidents thru FDR.

I couldn't come up with lies by either Carter or Ford.

Both were decent men. Both were ineffectual Presidents.
I hope there isn't a causal connection.

	13-06-2005 05:27									#74
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quote: I would agree that we should shoot all the politicians... but you seem to want to shoot only one.

That makes absolutley no sense whatsover Ming.


Politicians make decisions that affect people. This particular one has mad more bad decisions than anyone else in the last 30 years, probably the last 50. This particular one happens to be the most powerful man in the entire world.

So it does matter.

You have no idea what the effects of the magnitude of this lie have had, otherwise you would be pissed too.

It's no big deal though, politicians lie all the time.

	13-06-2005 05:34									#75
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quote: You have no idea what the effects of the magnitude of this lie have had, otherwise you would be pissed too.

I'm pissed... but I'm pised at the war. You don't seem to be listening. If he had just said DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM, he probably would have sold the war anyway... so the lie really DOESN'T matter. That's the point.

And as far as the worst in 50 years... I guess you are to young to remember Viet Nam

	13-06-2005 05:41									#76
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quote: I guess Bush is the first politician that has ever lied... Hmmmm... now that I think of it, every president I can remember has lied as well... Hmmmm... and so has just about every other world leader...

The consequences of this lie are far worse. That is the problem. We all know that Johnson lied about the Gulf of Tonkin, and that Reagan lied about Central America. Some pretty bad **** happened because of that. But that occurred within the bounds of an international order that all the big players agreed to. That's why the US invasion of Grenada was not particularly destablising, and nor were Soviet interventions in such places as Hungary, and nor was China's invasion and occupation of Tibet. All of these were bad, but none threatened to bring down the international order, since each tended to keep its overt interventions to its own sphere of influence. Thus, was World War III averted.

Now we have a mentally incompetent president, whose advisers seem to have little grip on political reality (and the diplomatic community, including US diplomats will be the first to tell you this in private) who have basically announced that they intend to run the world by force. If you didn't get the message, they made it US policy, and if you still didn't get the message they invaded a sovereign country in defiance of world opinion to prove it. That would be OK if the US actually was capable of doing this, but it isn't. You won't take the tax hikes it would need for a start.

So we are left with going back to what the world was like before WW1 – several power blocs each with a roughly similar ideology attempting to protect themselves against the others. Now we all know what happened there. I have no idea if that will happen again, but Shrub's seeming desire to destroy the even limited authority of the UN is completely daft. The UN is far from perfect, but it, or something like it, is the only alternative to the old systems of alliances and stupidity. Sure, it has a mixed history, but that can be solely laid at the feet of the great powers, who have consistently vetoed what didn't suit them. But it is still better than the jungle.

	13-06-2005 05:43									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Both were decent men. Both were ineffectual Presidents.

It wouldn't be the first time that somebody has noted that basic fact... sigh...

	13-06-2005 05:45									#78
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quote: I'm pissed... but I'm pised at the war. You don't seem to be listening. If he had just said DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM, he probably would have sold the war anyway... so the lie really DOESN'T matter. That's the point.

I don't think it would make much difference. The inviolability of states is the cornerstone of the world order. It is bad, and sometimes has disastrous results, but it is the only way that bad players can be brought to the table and made to play ball. The alternative is worse. If you don't allow bad states a seat at the table, then you go back to the jungle.

People laugh at the UN when countries like Libya end up on the human rights council – they shouldn't. That's the point – we don't have the power or will to impose good ideals on the world by force. Nobody does. This is the best alternative to trying.

	13-06-2005 05:46									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The consequences of this lie are far worse. That is the problem.

It seems some want to say that the lie caused the war... feel free to continue to live in that fantasy world.

The lie was just one way to the war... there were others. The war was going to happen no matter what.

	13-06-2005 05:49									#80
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quote: The fact that he choose to hang it on WOMD vs Democracy and Freedom was a bad mistake... he probably could have gotten away with the latter if he had put as much effort into as the WOMD argument.

Yep. One of many miscalculations.

	13-06-2005 05:49									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I'm pissed... but I'm pised at the war. You don't seem to be listening. If he had just said DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM, he probably would have sold the war anyway... so the lie really DOESN'T matter. That's the point.

It does matter. It destroys our credibility. Yes, the war would have been sold on those grounds, but the damage would have been much, much less.

Now when Bush says, "democracy" and "freedom," people roll their eyes because it's nothing more than a joke.

quote: And as far as the worst in 50 years... I guess you are to young to remember Viet Nam

That's actually a pretty good analogy.

	13-06-2005 05:49									#82
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Compare Bush II with Bush I. Bush I was a consummate diplomat who understood the limitations of both the UN and the US perfectly. I'm sure he would have liked to see Saddam fall, but he was quite aware of the disastrous affect on international relations that exceeding the UN mandate would have had. He even said this in his book.

I have no love for Republicans, but I respect George Bush Sr for the simple fact that he knew what he was doing. He must be privately horrified at what's going on now.

The best that could happen if this continues is that the US bankrupts itself in the same way the Soviets did, trying to pursue a futile dream of imposing itself on the world by force. You've seen those pics of Russian naval units rusting at anchor. That's the future of the US in the happy event that the current policies don't lead to mass nuclear proliferation and disaster.

	13-06-2005 05:51									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Now we have a mentally incompetent president, whose advisers seem to have little grip on political reality (and the diplomatic community, including US diplomats will be the first to tell you this in private) who have basically announced that they intend to run the world by force. If you didn't get the message, they made it US policy, and if you still didn't get the message they invaded a sovereign country in defiance of world opinion to prove it. That would be OK if the US actually was capable of doing this, but it isn't. You won't take the tax hikes it would need for a start.

	13-06-2005 06:01									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I have no love for Republicans, but I respect George Bush Sr for the simple fact that he knew what he was doing. He must be privately horrified at what's going on now.

I also respected Bush Sr... the world knew what to expect from him, and damn, they respected him as well.
It was too much to hope that sonny boy would turn out anywhere near as well... The good news is, he's now a lame duck president. It's amazing how fast the worlds opinion can change with the change of administrations.

Hopefully the next president will get caught having a BJ, and the other world leaders will respect him

	13-06-2005 06:19									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I also respected Bush Sr... the world knew what to expect from him, and damn, they respected him as well. It was too much to hope that sonny boy would turn out anywhere near as well... The good news is, he's now a lame duck president. It's amazing how fast the worlds opinion can change with the change of administrations.

I sure hope so, but it seems to me that his spinmeisters have been quite effective in demonising anyone who disagrees with him.

quote: Hopefully the next president will get caught having a BJ, and the other world leaders will respect him

Since it is likely to be John McCain or Hillary Clinton, that seems unlikely. Well unless Johnny Boy and Hillary have a thing, or the rumours about Hillary are true!

	13-06-2005 06:25									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon but it seems to me that his spinmeisters have been quite effective in demonising anyone who disagrees with him.

Seems fair since the left is doing their best to demonize him

quote: or the rumours about Hillary are true!

	13-06-2005 06:26									#87
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As long as I don't have to hear about cigars and blue dresses again...

	13-06-2005 06:30									#88
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quote: Seems fair since the left is doing their best to demonize him

They needn't bother. Regular folks don't listen to the left, and they already think he's Satan. I did a straw poll in my class last semester and out of about 100 almost all said they hated Bush (I hadn't primed them or anything – it was a response to a student comment).

And these are rich kids.

	13-06-2005 06:45									#89
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BTW - every American I spoke to about the Clinton Lewinsky thing was more outraged that he couldn't get a better looking girl to do him.

	13-06-2005 06:50									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I would agree that we should shoot all the politicians... but you seem to want to shoot only one.

Those words......placed right beside your avatar.....things just seem to fit together right about now.

We've been duped all along. We thought the enemy was here on Earth......but we were wrong!