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OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 04:24 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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Most of those people who drop out without an idea won't have an idea if they graduate anyways. If they ended up in prison or on welfare, odds are they would be in prison or on welfare with a high school degree too.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
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The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 04:43
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I dropped out of a PhD...not really the same at that level though

Asher is offline Asher
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 04:46 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Zopperoni
I graduate on Monday. Dropping out now would be poor timing to say the least.


He gave this advice to Standard students who were graduating.

The man's clearly got a few screws loose.

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 04:47 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP
Most of those people who drop out without an idea won't have an idea if they graduate anyways. If they ended up in prison or on welfare, odds are they would be in prison or on welfare with a high school degree too.


You don't need ideas to get a job. You need stuff on your resume, besides idea thinkerupper.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 05:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious


You don't need ideas to get a job. You need stuff on your resume, besides idea thinkerupper.



Jobs.


Working for yourself. Ideas.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 05:24
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I agree. Jobs

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 06:06
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quote:
Instead, he founded Pixar Studios, which has released enormously popular films such as Finding Nemo and Monsters, Inc.


Er, incorrect. Pixar was a division of Lucasfilms when Jobs bought it in 1986 as something to keep him busy after he got booted from Apple.

You may continue...

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 06:55
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It's rather interesting that both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are college dropouts. Maybe Jobs has a point.

Zopperoni is offline Zopperoni
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Dec 2000
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 07:01
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Michael Dell and Larry Ellison too.

Moral: drop outta college and do something with computers!

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 07:06
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I think the moral is more along the lines of "college will help you get a job in an established field, but its of much less value if you want to make your mark in an emerging one."

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
But he's had numerous hits. Apple (he was the guy who made it into a business), the mac (mostly down to his relentless perfectionism), Pixar (he kept hanging on to it because they had good people and he thought it would eventually pan out) and the iPod (which is again down to his relentless pushing of employees and outrageous demands).


Apple was mostly made by Woz, the other Steve. If not for his hardware hacking skills there wouldn't be an Apple Computer to speak of. Granted, Jobs is a excellent salesman and he might have helped selling the company to Mike Markkula, who initially bankrolled the company. Jobs never had involved in company operations those early years.

As for the Mac - Jobs actually wanted to kill it in favour of the Lisa. Aren't you glad he didn't succeed? The original Skinny Mac team flew a Jolly Rogers on one of the buildings at Apple.

I don't know about the other two, so can't comment on that.

One more thing. He had been a real monster toward Woz - cheated him out of money, hounded him out of Apple Computer, and threatened suppliers not to sell Woz's new company stuff. A real bastard all told.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I think the moral is more along the lines of "college will help you get a job in an established field, but its of much less value if you want to make your mark in an emerging one."


The new generation - Yang (Yahoo!), Brin and Page (Google), Linus Trovalds (GNU/Linux) etc. all have been through university, though.

Zopperoni is offline Zopperoni
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 07:20
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Yea, going through college won't really hamper your ambitions. It's just a good safety net for when things turn ugly.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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Dec 2002
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 07:20
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quote:
Apple was mostly made by Woz, the other Steve. If not for his hardware hacking skills there wouldn't be an Apple Computer to speak of.


Yes, but without Jobs entrepreneurial flair he would have got nowhere. Woz wasn't (and still isn't) interested in money.

quote:
Granted, Jobs is a excellent salesman and he might have helped selling the company to Mike Markkula, who initially bankrolled the company. Jobs never had involved in company operations those early years.


Markkula didn't buy the company, he came in as a partner.

quote:
As for the Mac - Jobs actually wanted to kill it in favour of the Lisa. Aren't you glad he didn't succeed? The original Skinny Mac team flew a Jolly Rogers on one of the buildings at Apple.


He wanted to kill it, but the project really didn't get going until he was made boss of it (to get him out of the way). He did what he did with the iPod with the mac - relentlessly browbeat his subordinates into coming up with something he thought was perfect.

quote:
One more thing. He had been a real monster toward Woz - cheated him out of money, hounded him out of Apple Computer, and threatened suppliers not to sell Woz's new company stuff. A real bastard all told.


Nah. He was a bastard early on, but Woz left Apple of his own accord. He'd pranged up a plane and just wasn't physically up to the job any more.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Zopperoni
Yea, going through college won't really hamper your ambitions. It's just a good safety net for when things turn ugly.


Or for those who have no ambition.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 07:34
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Here's the whole speech. Typical stuff, although I thought the final third was very good, and indeed a masterful piece of rhetoric in some places.

quote:
Text of Commencement address by Steve Jobs
This is a transcript of the 2005 Commencement address by Steve Jobs, CEO of Apple Computer and of Pixar Animation Studios.

Thank you. I'm honored to be with you today for your commencement from one of the finest universities in the world. Truth be told, I never graduated from college and this is the closest I've ever gotten to a college graduation.

Today I want to tell you three stories from my life. That's it. No big deal. Just three stories. The first story is about connecting the dots. I dropped out of Reed College after the first six months but then stayed around as a drop-in for another 18 months or so before I really quit. So why did I drop out? It started before I was born. My biological mother was a young, unwed graduate student, and she decided to put me up for adoption. She felt very strongly that I should be adopted by college graduates, so everything was all set for me to be adopted at birth by a lawyer and his wife, except that when I popped out, they decided at the last minute that they really wanted a girl. So my parents, who were on a waiting list, got a call in the middle of the night asking, "We've got an unexpected baby boy. Do you want him?" They said, "Of course."

My biological mother found out later that my mother had never graduated from college and that my father had never graduated from high school. She refused to sign the final adoption papers. She only relented a few months later when my parents promised that I would go to college. This was the start in my life. And 17 years later, I did go to college, but I naively chose a college that was almost as expensive as Stanford, and all of my working-class parents' savings were being spent on my college tuition. After six months, I couldn't see the value in it. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life, and no idea of how college was going to help me figure it out. And here I was, spending all the money my parents had saved their entire life. So I decided to drop out and trust that it would all work out OK. It was pretty scary at the time, but looking back, it was one of the best decisions I ever made. The minute I dropped out, I could stop taking the required classes that didn't interest me and begin dropping in on the ones that looked far more interesting.

It wasn't all romantic. I didn't have a dorm room so I slept on the floor in friends' rooms. I returned Coke bottles for the 5-cent deposits to buy food with, and I would walk the 7 miles across town every Sunday night to get one good meal a week at the Hare Krishna temple. I loved it. And much of what I stumbled into by following my curiosity and intuition turned out to be priceless later on. Let me give you one example.

Reed College at that time offered perhaps the best calligraphy instruction in the country. Throughout the campus every poster, every label on every drawer was beautifully hand-calligraphed. Because I had dropped out and didn't have to take the normal classes, I decided to take a calligraphy class to learn how to do this. I learned about serif and sans serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can't capture, and I found it fascinating.

None of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life. But 10 years later when we were designing the first Macintosh computer, it all came back to me, and we designed it all into the Mac. It was the first computer with beautiful typography. If I had never dropped in on that single course in college, the Mac would have never had multiple typefaces or proportionally spaced fonts, and since Windows just copied the Mac, it's likely that no personal computer would have them. If I had never dropped out, I would have never dropped in on that calligraphy class and personal computers might not have the wonderful typography that they do.

Of course it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward when I was in college, but it was very, very clear looking backward 10 years later. Again, you can't connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking backward, so you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something—your gut, destiny, life, karma, whatever—because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart, even when it leads you off the well-worn path, and that will make all the difference.

My second story is about love and loss. I was lucky I found what I loved to do early in life. Woz [Steve Wozniak] and I started Apple in my parents' garage when I was 20. We worked hard, and in 10 years, Apple had grown from just the two of us in a garage into a $2 billion company with over 4,000 employees. We'd just released our finest creation, the Macintosh, a year earlier, and I'd just turned 30, and then I got fired. How can you get fired from a company you started? Well, as Apple grew we hired someone, who I thought was very talented, to run the company with me, and for the first year or so, things went well. But then our visions of the future began to diverge, and eventually we had a falling out. When we did, our board of directors sided with him, and so at 30, I was out, and very publicly out. What had been the focus of my entire adult life was gone, and it was devastating. I really didn't know what to do for a few months. I felt that I had let the previous generation of entrepreneurs down, that I had dropped the baton as it was being passed to me. I met with David Packard and Bob Noyce and tried to apologize for screwing up so badly. I was a very public failure, and I even thought about running away from the Valley. But something slowly began to dawn on me. I still loved what I did. The turn of events at Apple had not changed that one bit. I'd been rejected but I was still in love. And so I decided to start over.

I didn't see it then, but it turned out that getting fired from Apple was the best thing that could have ever happened to me. The heaviness of being successful was replaced by the lightness of being a beginner again, less sure about everything. It freed me to enter one of the most creative periods in my life. During the next five years I started a company named NeXT, another company named Pixar and fell in love with an amazing woman who would become my wife. Pixar went on to create the world's first computer-animated feature film, Toy Story, and is now the most successful animation studio in the world.

In a remarkable turn of events, Apple bought NeXT and I returned to Apple. And the technology we developed at NeXT is at the heart of Apple's current renaissance, and Laurene and I have a wonderful family together.

I'm pretty sure none of this would have happened if I hadn't been fired from Apple. It was awful-tasting medicine, but I guess the patient needed it. Sometimes life's going to hit you in the head with a brick. Don't lose faith. I'm convinced that the only thing that kept me going was that I loved what I did. You've got to find what you love, and that is as true for work as it is for your lovers. Your work is going to fill a large part of your life, and the only way to be truly satisfied is to do what you believe is great work, and the only way to do great work is to love what you do. If you haven't found it yet, keep looking and don't settle. As with all matters of the heart, you'll know when you find it, and like any great relationship it just gets better and better as the years roll on. So keep looking. Don't settle.

My third story is about death. When I was 17 I read a quote that went something like, "If you live each day as if it was your last, someday you'll most certainly be right." It made an impression on me, and since then, for the past 33 years, I have looked in the mirror every morning and asked myself, "If today were the last day of my life, would I want to do what I am about to do today?" And whenever the answer has been "no" for too many days in a row, I know I need to change something. Remembering that I'll be dead soon is the most important thing I've ever encountered to help me make the big choices in life, because almost everything—all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure—these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart.

About a year ago, I was diagnosed with cancer. I had a scan at 7:30 in the morning, and it clearly showed a tumor on my pancreas. I didn't even know what a pancreas was. The doctors told me this was almost certainly a type of cancer that is incurable, and that I should expect to live no longer than three to six months. My doctor advised me to go home and get my affairs in order, which is doctors' code for prepare to die. It means to try and tell your kids everything you thought you'd have the next 10 years to tell them in just a few months. It means to make sure that everything is buttoned up so that it will be as easy as possible for your family. It means to say your good-byes.

I lived with that diagnosis all day. Later that evening I had a biopsy where they stuck an endoscope down my throat, through my stomach and into my intestines, put a needle into my pancreas and got a few cells from the tumor. I was sedated but my wife, who was there, told me that when they viewed the cells under a microscope, the doctor started crying, because it turned out to be a very rare form of pancreatic cancer that is curable with surgery. I had the surgery and, thankfully, I am fine now.

This was the closest I've been to facing death, and I hope it's the closest I get for a few more decades. Having lived through it, I can now say this to you with a bit more certainty than when death was a useful but purely intellectual concept: No one wants to die. Even people who want to go to heaven don't want to die to get there, and yet death is the destination we all share. No one has ever escaped it. And that is as it should be, because death is very likely the single best invention of life. It's life's change agent; it clears out the old to make way for the new. Right now, the new is you. But someday not too long from now, you will gradually become the old and be cleared away. Sorry to be so dramatic, but it's quite true. Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma, which is living with the results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of others' opinions drown out your own inner voice, and most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.

When I was young, there was an amazing publication called the Whole Earth Catalog, which was one of the bibles of my generation. It was created by a fellow named Stewart Brand not far from here in Menlo Park, and he brought it to life with his poetic touch. This was in the late '60s, before personal computers and desktop publishing, so it was all made with typewriters, scissors and Polaroid cameras. It was sort of like Google in paperback form 35 years before Google came along. It was idealistic, overflowing with neat tools and great notions. Stewart and his team put out several issues of the Whole Earth Catalog, and then when it had run its course, they put out a final issue. It was the mid-1970s, and I was your age. On the back cover of their final issue was a photograph of an early morning country road, the kind you might find yourself hitchhiking on if you were so adventurous. Beneath it were the words "stay hungry, stay foolish." It was their farewell message as they signed off. "Stay hungry, stay foolish." And I have always wished that for myself, and now, as you graduate to begin anew, I wish that for you. Stay hungry, stay foolish.

Thank you all very much.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 07:38
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
Or for those who have no ambition.


Do you know why a lot of jobs require an university degree? It's not just the knowledge, which you can acquire somewhere else. Indeed, the diploma shows a lot more:

1. The person isn't afraid of setting serious goals
2. The person has sufficient discipline to drive himself towards these goals
3. The person has sufficient organisation and planning skills to get him through those 4 years
4. The person is intelligent enough to understand the material
5. The person isn't a quitter, he can tackle obstacles

Sure, not everybody who didn't get a university degree doesn't have these qualities, but how do you show your interviewer in 5 minutes or 30 minutes? They just don't have the time, so they don't bother.

Agathon is offline Agathon
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 07:42
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You forgot

6. The person has rich parents, and is thus a member of the ruling class rather than one of those working class people we keep dumb on purpose.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 08:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Sure, not everybody who didn't get a university degree doesn't have these qualities, but how do you show your interviewer in 5 minutes or 30 minutes? They just don't have the time, so they don't bother.


Someone with ambition wouldn't let that stop them.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 08:22 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
It's rather interesting that both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are college dropouts. Maybe Jobs has a point.

Yes: when you see opportunity, seize it.

Asher is offline Asher
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 08:23 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
The new generation - Yang (Yahoo!), Brin and Page (Google), Linus Trovalds (GNU/Linux) etc. all have been through university, though.

It's just a shame Linus never bothered to take an Operating Systems course, otherwise he'd have learned we stopped using monolithic kernels in the 80s.

Mrs. Tuberski is offline Mrs. Tuberski
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 08:42
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Are you guys kidding me?? for gods sake the idea of just saying yeah lets all drop out of school is only gonna work for the rich little **** that has parents to pay for his school. and keep puting money in his ****ing trust fund. If this is to happen by all means why let jr become a fuctional member of society?? Nah its easier to let him live off the trust fund

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 08:55
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quote:

Are you guys kidding me?? for gods sake the idea of just saying yeah lets all drop out of school is only gonna work for the rich little **** that has parents to pay for his school. and keep puting money in his ****ing trust fund. If this is to happen by all means why let jr become a fuctional member of society?? Nah its easier to let him live off the trust fund


It doesn't make much sense for me to be paying 10 thousand dollars a year to be taught stuff that I already understand. School has a big opportunity cost in both time and money. The question for any student should be whether school is worth everything that the student has to put into going there.

Now I can see why some students, particularly nursing students have a pretty good deal. Once they are finished they have a well paying job to look forward at the end. The same is not true for a significant number of university students, particularly teachers.

Secondly, the only 'functional members' of society have a university degree? That is the biggest joke ever. One can contribute to society without a degree, just as much as those who have them.

Finally, university can be a detriment to folks contributing to society, when all they learn is how to drink and party.

Ben Kenobi is offline Ben Kenobi
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 09:03
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nm

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  Old Post 15-06-2005 09:03
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd



Jobs.


Working for yourself. Ideas.


There's hope for you yet, Ludd.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 09:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Apparently mr kenobi doesnt know that you have to contribute at least 15 yers of your life in nursing to mke a good living. Top pay for graduating nurse is 15 dollars an hour. OH but wait lets not forget for those poor students who continue to finish school that gee i dunno thw 20,000 dollars in student loans must be repaid. Oh but wait it gets better. Does the young kenobi belivr that all of the equipment like sthethoscopes and stuff are given to us??? Well let me think UHHH no they arent we have to buy them our self, along wiht all the other equipment we need to do our job.


Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
nm


What was that (I managed to preserve it before you got rid of it)?

Mrs. Tuberski is offline Mrs. Tuberski
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 09:08
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Im sorry that was mine ben is in sa, and me and the hubby live here I let ben use my laptop pc earlier today and didnt realize the genius didnt sign out my bad

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  Old Post 15-06-2005 09:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
nm


Are you drinking?

OzzyKP is offline OzzyKP
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  Old Post 15-06-2005 09:09 Visit OzzyKP's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
You don't need ideas to get a job. You need stuff on your resume, besides idea thinkerupper.


Who needs a resume?

I don't intend on applying anywhere, so what do I need a good resume for? Whatever I do, I am going to make it on my own. Thats what most of the really successful people did, and that's what I am doing.

Anyways, even if I did want to get a regular job obeying some mid-level boss in some monolithic corporation I've got a pretty damn good resume without the degree. How many job applicants have built up entire organizations by themselves, gotten significant national media coverage, recruited thousands of members, etc etc.

I've gotten more real world experience, more training, more accomplishments under my belt than most people my age whether they've got a degree or not. Plus the added bonus of not having the debt most people my age have so they can pay off the worthless sheet of paper they struggled 4 (or 5 or 6) years to get.

All in all, I am pretty damn happy about my situation, and am very glad I dropped out.

 
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