14-06-2005 21:54									#1
	Star Wars vs Lord of the Rings - thoughts about Theoden and Palpatine Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

So in SW, Palpatine is evil, and turns Anakin. So theres a pair of evil guys running the empire. Then Anakin/Vader's son Luke, turns Anakin back to the good side, destroying the power of Palpatine. But not before Palpatine tries to turn Luke to the dark side. Without success.

In LOTR, Theoden is not evil, but hes weak and in his dotage, under the influence of Grima Wormtongue. Grima is a pal of the evil Saruman. Theoden, but not Grima, is turned back to life and the defense of good, by Gandalf. Whom, much earlier, Saruman had attempted,without success, to turn to evil.

Grima ends up killing Saruman. Anakin/Veder ends up killing Palpatine.

Anakin, before dying, is reconciled to his son, Luke. Theoden, well before dying, is reconciled to his nephew and heir, Eomer.

Other thoughts on the Lord of the Mark, and the Emperor, are welcome.

	14-06-2005 22:01									#2
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The politcal winds of the day obviously influenced the development of both these sets of characters.

Theoden represented the dangers of weakness and appeasment in Tolkeins era. Lucas's aprehension of an imperialistic US and erosion of civl rights formed his basis for Palpatine.

The redemption of Theoden and Annakin are classic religious themes.

	14-06-2005 22:26									#3
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SW is more fantasy then Sci-fi, it should be no suprise that it is stylisticaly similar to TLOTR. Both works take inspiration from the take of King Arthur. Vader-Luke are very much like Arthur-Mordrid (that makes Obi-wan and later Yoda equivilent to Merlin). Every classic architypal theme found in Arthur and countless other heros is repeated in Luke. The hinted at Insestus relationship between Luke and Laya also parrelels the Arthurian tale. The bigest difference is that the Original StarWars trilogy ends Triumphantly ware Arthur ends tragicaly, much more like the pre-trilogy infact.

	15-06-2005 01:08									#4
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bump

	15-06-2005 07:13									#5
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bumped for the last time - if you dont get it, you dont get it.

	15-06-2005 11:08									#6
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The classical themes of tragedy and redemption are enduring. A movie that uses those themes, however stiffly acted, will have a degree of compelling emotional impact.

Episodes I and II were vacuous special effect vehicles. No classical character development, only tangential story line development. Episode III has finally incorporated the classical elements of tragedy and doesn't suck so badly.

	15-06-2005 11:32									#7
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Now, when will this son redeeming father thing ever work with the Bush family?

	15-06-2005 11:44									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe The politcal winds of the day obviously influenced the development of both these sets of characters. Theoden represented the dangers of weakness and appeasment in Tolkeins era. Lucas's aprehension of an imperialistic US and erosion of civl rights formed his basis for Palpatine. The redemption of Theoden and Annakin are classic religious themes.

I disagree.

Tolkien's main experience with modern technological war was WW1. Did Tolkien himself ever say much about WW2 or any influence it might have had on his tales?

Lucas created Palpatine in the late 1970's, so the whole errosion of civil rights in the late 70's does not make much sense.

	15-06-2005 12:22									#9
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there is zero political talk in the first trilogy. it's a bad galactic empire and the rebels fight it, end of story

it's the second trilogy that has all the lines about politicians and how good they are, the importance of saving democracy over giving powers to the cancellor, etc...

	15-06-2005 12:43									#10
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Then Anakin/Vader's son Luke, turns Anakin back to the good side, destroying the power of Palpatine. But not before Palpatine tries to turn Luke to the dark side. Without success.

Not exactly. Palpatine's soul survived his death. There are still three more Episodes to come.
Boba Fett survived as well, BTW.

	15-06-2005 12:47									#11
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do we have a full new fight on ghost-level: yoda, anakin and kenobi vs palpatine??

	15-06-2005 12:47									#12
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What's Lando doing?

Still drinking that Colt 45?

	15-06-2005 12:49									#13
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From what I read, Palpatine will find a new body.
And Leia will have three children with Han. The name of one of them will be Anakin Solo.

	15-06-2005 12:54									#14
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What about Lando dammit???

	15-06-2005 13:01									#15
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Lando will realize an old childhood dream and will moderate the "Other Games" forum at Apolyton. He'll never make it to the HOF, though.

	15-06-2005 13:12									#16
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MarkG = Palpatine, Ming = Annakin? Laser sword = banning rod? But who's Theoden here......

	15-06-2005 14:05									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I disagree. Tolkien's main experience with modern technological war was WW1. Did Tolkien himself ever say much about WW2 or any influence it might have had on his tales? Lucas created Palpatine in the late 1970's, so the whole errosion of civil rights in the late 70's does not make much sense.

Tolkien fought in WW1 or at least served in the military but he spent most of his life being a prof. of midieval European history. He wrote the Hobbit in the 1930's but the LotR wasn't published until after WW2 and he spent much of WW2 writting and rewritting the story. Tolkien himself often said his battle between good and evil was shaped very much by the real life battle between axis and allies while Germany was the Mordor which was defeated but rose again to try to conquor the world. England was of course Gondor which was once mighty but losing strength.

	15-06-2005 18:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I disagree. Tolkien's main experience with modern technological war was WW1. Did Tolkien himself ever say much about WW2 or any influence it might have had on his tales? Lucas created Palpatine in the late 1970's, so the whole errosion of civil rights in the late 70's does not make much sense.

re tolkien - tolkien denied the trilogy was allegory of ww2. He specifically pointed out that the main themes had been developed in outline by 1939. Which is not QUITE convincing to me, to the extent that one focuses not on the course of the war (which is NOT like WW2, as GePap rightly points out, the Battle of the Pelennor fields was probably based on WW1, which Tolkien experienced) but on the appeasement issues wrt Rohan, etc. Appeasement was certainly an overt issue before Sept '39, and was largely viewed as a failure after spring of '39.

	16-06-2005 01:12									#19
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quote: Originally posted by oedo Not exactly. Palpatine's soul survived his death. There are still three more Episodes to come. Boba Fett survived as well, BTW.

Ugh. This is expanded universe crap and should no way be treated as canon. The return of Palpatine is from the Dork...erm, Dark Empire comic book series, which is considered by most fans to be atrociously bad. I know I found what I read of it painful.

As far as Lucas is concerned, both Palpatine and Boba Fett died in their respective movie demises. And since Lucas has already said he won't do any more SW movies, that's his final word on the matter.

	16-06-2005 01:32									#20
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Tolkien was never a huge fan of straight allegory. One can hunt through LotR for symbols and maybe even subconscious associations, but exact parallels to contemporary events would be forced and fallacious. As pointed out above, Tolkien was writing based on Anglo-Saxon and various Nordic traditions largely composed in pre-Norman England. Lord of the Rings was to be the national myth he felt England never had, not a warning of the times.

	16-06-2005 02:17									#21
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quote: Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke Tolkien was never a huge fan of straight allegory. One can hunt through LotR for symbols and maybe even subconscious associations, but exact parallels to contemporary events would be forced and fallacious. As pointed out above, Tolkien was writing based on Anglo-Saxon and various Nordic traditions largely composed in pre-Norman England. Lord of the Rings was to be the national myth he felt England never had, not a warning of the times.

yeah right. a quiet english country village, that has mail service, and umbrellas, for gawdsake, thats taken over by folks who want to "gather and redistribute", who want to maximize production, and who pollute for the helluvit, only to be defeated by the brave townsfolk, like I wonder which Icelandic Edda he got THAT from.

	16-06-2005 02:32									#22
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quote: that's his final word on the matter.

Pleaaaaasse let it be true.

	16-06-2005 02:37									#23
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Tolkien explicitley stated he did not draw his story rom contemporary events. What more do you want?

	16-06-2005 02:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DerSchwarzfalke Tolkien was never a huge fan of straight allegory. One can hunt through LotR for symbols and maybe even subconscious associations, but exact parallels to contemporary events would be forced and fallacious. As pointed out above, Tolkien was writing based on Anglo-Saxon and various Nordic traditions largely composed in pre-Norman England. Lord of the Rings was to be the national myth he felt England never had, not a warning of the times.

In the prologue he wrote for one edition of LOTR Tolkien admitted to one allegorical feature. Part of his youth he grew up in the English countryside graced by a peaceful little pond he loved to play around. Returning to the are after WW1 he found it despoiled by an ugly industrial mill. This incident in his past became the inspiration for the closing chapters of ROTK, in which the Hobbit heroes return to their homeland to find it despoiled by the industrial developments of the minions of Mordor. By extension one can also wonder if Sauron, Mordor, the orks and all that were allegories for the modern age which Tolkien, and his friend C.S. Lewis often decried.

	16-06-2005 03:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Ugh. This is expanded universe crap and should no way be treated as canon.

It is, though.

	16-06-2005 04:09									#26
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quote: Originally posted by oedo From what I read, Palpatine will find a new body.

Gasp! He's going to share the back of some English public school teacher's head and torture poor Harry Potter!

	16-06-2005 04:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by oedo Lando will realize an old childhood dream and will moderate the "Other Games" forum at Apolyton. He'll never make it to the HOF, though.

Is that the ice planet of HOF? *groan*

	16-06-2005 04:19									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker It is, though.

No it isn't. At least, not by a majority. Those who think the Zahn novels are the true successors to the movies would scoff at the notion that Dark Empire is in any way legitimate (esp. since they are contradictory).

In fact, there is so much contradictory stuff in the EU that considering any of it canon is silly. Until Lucas puts it on film, it ain't canon, simple as that.

	16-06-2005 04:20									#29
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The fans don't define canon. I believe Lucasarts or whoever declared the EU canon.

Though I agree Zahn is far superior.

	16-06-2005 04:24									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No it isn't. At least, not by a majority. Those who think the Zahn novels are the true successors to the movies would scoff at the notion that Dark Empire is in any way legitimate (esp. since they are contradictory). In fact, there is so much contradictory stuff in the EU that considering any of it canon is silly. Until Lucas puts it on film, it ain't canon, simple as that.

Which is why Star Trek fans will always win any argument about who would win a conflict between the Federation and the Empire.