15-06-2005 08:22									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Let's assume that this mother has absolutely no chance of improving and becoming a real person. Why should she drain on the tax payer's money? Why should a murderer, drug-addict, be kept alive, and drain on the efforts of some family in suburban America, with nice and kind people? Why should she live?

Because capital punishment in of itself is an unjustified pratice. No matter the severity of the crime or whether or not the criminal is mentally competent.

I believe that capital punishment is unjustified, because here in United States, the pratice of sentencing felons to execution has been shown to be inherently racist.

The second reason is because it has been shown that maintenance of death rown detainees has actually been shown to be MORE expensive than keeping criminals in prison for life.

A third reason I oppose capital punishment is the risk of a death row detainee who is innocent of the alleged crime, but ends up being executed anyway. To me, it doesn't matter that this terrible mistake happens infrequently -- it's not the quantity of these mistakes that counts, IMO because once the mistake is made in this regard, you cannot reverse the mistake.

You can find the information I'm referring to from Amnesty's official website.

	15-06-2005 08:23									#32
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quote: Even if keeping her alive meant taking away the taxpayer's money?

Who says that you can't make her work while she's in prison?

Make her pay for herself.

	15-06-2005 08:25									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear It's stupid to compare human sacrifice to capital punishment. There is a large difference between killing innocent people in a cruel way, and killing mass-murderers in a pain-free way.

Is there that much of a qualitative difference?

Amnesty International can probably point to examples of botched "pain-free" lethal injections that went horribly wrong for the criminal. He's not innocent true, but it goes against your presumption that execution can be pain-free.

	15-06-2005 08:30									#34
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Because capital punishment in of itself is an unjustified pratice. No matter the severity of the crime or whether or not the criminal is mentally competent. I believe that capital punishment is unjustified, because here in United States, the pratice of sentencing felons to execution has been shown to be inherently racist.

Racist? How is punishing someone racist?

quote: The second reason is because it has been shown that maintenance of death rown detainees has actually been shown to be MORE expensive than keeping criminals in prison for life.

If that were true for this case, then I think she should be put in jail for life.

quote: A third reason I oppose capital punishment is the risk of a death row detainee who is innocent of the alleged crime, but ends up being executed anyway. To me, it doesn't matter that this terrible mistake happens infrequently -- it's not the quantity of these mistakes that counts, IMO because once the mistake is made in this regard, you cannot reverse the mistake. You can find the information I'm referring to from Amnesty's official website.

What if the evidence is obviously accurate? For example, if we caught Osama Bin Laden, got all the information that we could out of him, and his use was over, would you not support killing him?

	15-06-2005 08:32									#35
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Is there that much of a qualitative difference? Amnesty International can probably point to examples of botched "pain-free" lethal injections that went horribly wrong for the criminal. He's not innocent true, but it goes against your presumption that execution can be pain-free.

Well, too bad. Hopefully, one day we can find a poison that has no chance of causing pain, but immediate death.

	15-06-2005 08:33									#36
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quote: Originally posted by bipolarbear Who says that you can't make her work while she's in prison? Make her pay for herself.

There's no way that could be done without a risk of her escaping. What work would it be plausible for her to do?

	15-06-2005 08:33									#37
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Racist as in proportion of death sentences compared to whites with blacks. Take the same number of violent black felons and the same number of violent white felons -- a higher proportion of blacks in this case, are likely to be sentenced to death.

I think we can get greater satisfaction out of having Osamy sentenced to life-time solitary confinement. Just knowing he has to waste away the rest of his rotten life in a cell . . . . . .

	15-06-2005 08:34									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Well, too bad. Hopefully, one day we can find a poison that has no chance of causing pain, but immediate death.

Wow -- what an impressive counter-argument.

	15-06-2005 08:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Wow -- what an impressive counter-argument.

Well, I don't really care if some rapist, serial killer has some pain because of the rare chance of the poison not working. It isn't anything close to mass murder of innocent babies/children.

	15-06-2005 08:42									#40
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Racist as in proportion of death sentences compared to whites with blacks. Take the same number of violent black felons and the same number of violent white felons -- a higher proportion of blacks in this case, are likely to be sentenced to death. I think we can get greater satisfaction out of having Osamy sentenced to life-time solitary confinement. Just knowing he has to waste away the rest of his rotten life in a cell . . . . . .

I'm not quite sure whether what you are saying is true or not, but I will assume it is. That's the problem with living in a society that has a racist background, and still has many racist problems today. Unless, the ratio is somthing like five blacks to one white, it might just be coincidental.

So I assume you would have absolutely no problem with torturing terrorists?

	15-06-2005 08:42									#41
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How can you seriously not care? I thought civilization has advanced beyond cruel and unusual punishment.

	15-06-2005 08:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear I'm not quite sure whether what you are saying is true or not, but I will assume it is. That's the problem with living in a society that has a racist background, and still has many racist problems today. Unless, the ratio is somthing like five blacks to one white, it might just be coincidental. So I assume you would have absolutely no problem with torturing terrorists?

Visit Amnesty International's website and navigate to the relevant information.

	15-06-2005 08:44									#43
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun How can you seriously not care? I thought civilization has advanced beyond cruel and unusual punishment.

I don't think they really cared when they raped that 10-year old boy, strangled him, then threw him in a ditch.

	15-06-2005 08:44									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Visit Amnesty International's website and navigate to the relevant information.

Wow -- what an impressive counter-argument.

	15-06-2005 08:45									#45
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You're letting your emotions interfere with rational thought.



EDIT: cross posting

	15-06-2005 08:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Nuclear Wow -- what an impressive counter-argument.

What was wrong with referring to an outside source? You said you were not sure of my argument of inherent racism and instead of lettng you just take my word for it, I was nice enough to point you in the right direction.

So pay up.

	15-06-2005 08:47									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Doesn't matter to me. I cannot let my primal emotions cloud my judgement by screaming, "EYE FOR AN EYE" over and over again.

It's neither primal nor screaming nor "eye for an eye" - it's a purely utilitarian position that this woman's acts are so abhorrent that society neither benefits by her continued consumption of resources, nor is it safe to ever free her. We don't need to be simpering morons who piss away significant resources on this type of murdering scum, while ignoring the possibility of doing real good and providing second chances and opportunities to those worthy of, and candidates for, rehabilitation.

	15-06-2005 08:48									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It's neither primal nor screaming nor "eye for an eye" - it's a purely utilitarian position that this woman's acts are so abhorrent that society neither benefits by her continued consumption of resources, nor is it safe to ever free her. We don't need to be simpering morons who piss away significant resources on this type of murdering scum, while ignoring the possibility of doing real good and providing second chances and opportunities to those worthy of, and candidates for, rehabilitation.

Great, now you join in when I have to sign off to get my ass to bed.

	15-06-2005 08:52									#49
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun What was wrong with referring to an outside source? You said you were not sure of my argument of inherent racism and instead of lettng you just take my word for it, I was nice enough to point you in the right direction. So pay up.

You didn't respond to my "torturing terrorists" argument.

	15-06-2005 08:53									#50
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Let me know if this sounds like taking my position to too far of an extreme, but capital punishment could be seen as a cultural pratice that belongs with other uncivilized pratices found in primitive cultures, such as cannabalism, human sacrifice, infanticide, and so forth. Is that too extreme of an argument for my position?

No - if you choose to ignore the concept of capital punishment being imposed only through a strict judicial process against the worst sorts of murderers as being a tad different from random people choosing to kill other random people who've harmed nobody, then by all means, make a fool of yourself.

	15-06-2005 08:54									#51
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Great, now you join in when I have to sign off to get my ass to bed.

Slink off into the night, Yankee...

	15-06-2005 08:59									#52
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I believe that capital punishment is unjustified, because here in United States, the pratice of sentencing felons to execution has been shown to be inherently racist.

Irrelevant except as to the specific cases in which the sentencing process was corrupted.

quote: The second reason is because it has been shown that maintenance of death rown detainees has actually been shown to be MORE expensive than keeping criminals in prison for life.

In California and other states where court systems are packed by handwringers who abuse the appellate system to create delay after delay. Take the legal costs out (which could be done easily by mandated improvements to the procedure and evidentiary rules), and the costs are no longer comparable.

quote: A third reason I oppose capital punishment is the risk of a death row detainee who is innocent of the alleged crime, but ends up being executed anyway. To me, it doesn't matter that this terrible mistake happens infrequently -- it's not the quantity of these mistakes that counts, IMO because once the mistake is made in this regard, you cannot reverse the mistake.

An innocent person sentenced to life without parole is equally unacceptable. In such cases, it's the process, not the punishment, which is at fault, and which is why the process needs to be improved. In this and many other cases, however, there is fundamentally no doubt as to guilt.

	15-06-2005 18:33									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I believe that capital punishment is unjustified, because here in United States, the pratice of sentencing felons to execution has been shown to be inherently racist.

Well... I read up to that point. You were doing ok there for awhile. Then you went and blew it.

	15-06-2005 18:59									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Isn't anyone here willing to consider the possibility that the kid actually was a demon? I mean, what kind of name is Kyeimah? When you hear "Kyeimah," do you think "6-year-old kid" or do you think "Ancient Sumerian Dark Lord of Chaos"?

If those are the alternatives, "6-year-old kid". Kyeimah doesn't sound Sumerian.

	15-06-2005 22:36									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal quote: Originally posted by MrFun I believe that capital punishment is unjustified, because here in United States, the pratice of sentencing felons to execution has been shown to be inherently racist. Well... I read up to that point. You were doing ok there for awhile. Then you went and blew it.

It's not my fault that you cannot confront just how prevalent racism is in this country.

	15-06-2005 23:24									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Isn't anyone here willing to consider the possibility that the kid actually was a demon? I mean, what kind of name is Kyeimah? When you hear "Kyeimah," do you think "6-year-old kid" or do you think "Ancient Sumerian Dark Lord of Chaos"? Of course, she could also possibly have been an NPC from Morrowind...

We've been over this, if the kid was really a demon mere beheading would not have been enough to do the job.

	15-06-2005 23:36									#57
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i didn't have the stomache to read everything LN and mr Fun wrote
but MrFun had something about human value and not killing people which i liked and LN's arguments about killing peopel and finding the perfect poison sounded very much 12-years-old-boy

	16-06-2005 00:49									#58
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We're perfectly happy to commute all our death penalty inmate's sentences to "life without parole in Sweden." Please give us a shipping address, and they'll all be yours and you can coddle them all you want. They certainly didn't concern themselves with "the value of human life" when they chose to kill.

	16-06-2005 00:51									#59
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really this person sounds terrible frelled in the head, is that a crime? i'm frelled too, only not as much.

but please send her here, i think we would treat her better

	16-06-2005 01:14									#60
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Holding your own child down in a bathtub while she struggles in panic trying not to die (let alone knowing she was being killed by her own mom), and continuing to hold her while she flails, coughs out blood and mucus and turns bright red with her eyes looking like they're going to pop out is a crime yes.

There is nothing easy about drowning - I've nearly done it. It is a very slow, excruciatingly painful way to die.

Then going out and buying an axe so you can decapitate your daughter's body to make her a little easier to dispose of goes even further beyond the pale.

She's not worth the cost of shipping anywhere - she's barely worth the cost of a small caliber bullet to the head, and that only to save the rest of us the hassle and cost of anything more.