17-06-2005 11:46									#61
	Re: '30 Days' Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Frankychan WHY doesn't the U.S. have free medical? Is the medical industry preventing us from having affordable, or free, medical assistance?

No country on earth has "free" medical care, such a thing is impossible unless that "care" consisted of no one doing anything for you.

	17-06-2005 11:48									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You say that, but I doubt that's how it will work in practice. Freeloaders always manage to get theirs, particularly with massive government programs like the one you're proposing.

Agreed. In fact there is a whole political party dedicated to freeloaders whose symbol is the jackass. The other party (which uses the bloated white elephant as its standard) is dedicated to free lunches.

	17-06-2005 11:52									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Medicare is considerably more efficient than private health insurance.

So efficient that no one wants to take medicare patients except bogus medical supply companies. There are so few willing providers in many parts of the country that it is considered a crisis. Which of course sounds a lot like parts of Canada, except that Canadians aren't legally entitled to seek private medical care in order to ease the burden on the public system. We'll see how the court decision in Quebec impacts this in the long run.

	17-06-2005 11:55									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo In terms of administrative costs, we spend $752 per capita more than Canada each year according to a recent study. So a single payer system would save around a couple hundred billion dollars in terms of administrative costs, which is far more than needed to insure everyone currently uninsured. quote: The gap between US and Canadian spending on healthcare administration has grown to $752 per capita, according to the New England Journal of Medicine, reporting August 21 on the findings of researchers at Harvard Medical School and the Canadian Institute for Health Information. "A decade ago, the administrative costs of healthcare in the United States greatly exceeded those in Canada. We investigated whether the ascendancy of computerization, managed care, and the adoption of more businesslike approaches to healthcare have decreased administrative costs," NEJM editors wrote. "A large sum might be saved in the United States if administrative costs could be trimmed by implementing a Canadian-style healthcare system," journal editors concluded. Healthcare bureaucracy cost Americans $294.3 billion in 1999. The $1,059 per capita spent on healthcare administration was more than three times the $307 per capita in paperwork costs under Canada's national health insurance system. Cutting US health bureaucracy costs to the Canadian level would have saved $209 billion in 1999. http://abilitymagazine.com/news_CanadianHealthCare.html

Most of that is due to the insurance industry and defensive medicine. The insurance industry deserves to go down in flames, they've done more to harm the health of the average American than the tobacco companies have. Defensive medicine is a joint effort by trial lawyers and the insurance industry. I'd like to see them all out of business. Gross negligence should be a criminal matter, not a civil one.

	17-06-2005 11:56									#65
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quote: Agreed, against my better judgement. I don't like the idea of government funded health care, but our current system of (some) employer funded healthcare is puting us at a significant competitive disadvantage. Best of all would be people paying for their own insurance as offered by "insurance unions" structured similarly to credit unions. Customer owned non-profits.

That's an interesting idea...

	17-06-2005 12:26									#66
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Something is seriously screwed up in the American system , and I'm at a loss as to what it is .

In India , we can get x-rays done for 100 Rs. to 200 Rs. ( which is all less than five dollars ) . Band Aids are less than five rupees ( 20 cents ) .

WTF is going on in American healthcare ? Even some of my relatives who went to America and are doctors said that the costs are way too high .

Last edited by aneeshm on 17-06-2005 at 16:33

	17-06-2005 12:32									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Most of that is due to the insurance industry and defensive medicine. The insurance industry deserves to go down in flames, they've done more to harm the health of the average American than the tobacco companies have. Defensive medicine is a joint effort by trial lawyers and the insurance industry. I'd like to see them all out of business. Gross negligence should be a criminal matter, not a civil one.

What we need is a way to prove this to the public. I still don't know what it is exactly the insurance companies are doing to jack up prices. Is it just a simple case of gauging? Most insurance companies to be almost always be profitable, so it's not like they are ever in danger of losing money. Maybe they are whoring themselves to some of their major stakeholders.

Your tobacco thing is a good example.

When the Surgeon General says, "smoking will kill your azz," then that's something that can really move the public.

I haven't seen something this dramatic with a simple soundbyte of what's going on with insurance companies, even though that's what's needed.

"Need a rectal exam? Why bother, your insurance company gives you one every time they send you a bill."

	17-06-2005 14:05									#68
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quote: Originally posted by aneeshm Something is seriously screwed up in the American system , and I'm at a loss as to what it is . In India , we can get x-rays done for 100 Rs. to 200 Rs. ( which is all less than five dollars ) . Band Aids are less than fice rupees ( 20 cents ) . WTF is going on in American healthcare ? Even some of my relatives who went to America and are doctors said that the costs are way too high .

Exactly. Why does it seem like almost every nation on the planet Earth has a better healthcare system for it's citizens than the U.S.? A healthy populace equals a more productive populace equals more profits...but it seems like the healthcare industry in America has it's talons too far deep into American politics.

(but I apologize for my own personal beliefs. I'll try and keep this objective)

How much in taxes do you have to pay, aneeshm?

Syke-Of course I don't mean "free", when I mean free healthcare. I'm talking about serious medical happenstance (exploding appendix, puncture wound in my foot from surfing, for example). All these bullsh** plastic surgery things that are going on in America need not apply. If it isn't broke, don't fix it I say. (But corrective eye surgery wouldn't be considered 'cosmetic' IMHO).

But if you want a new pair of boobies, you should be prepared to pay an arm and a leg.

	17-06-2005 15:30									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker What we need is a way to prove this to the public. I still don't know what it is exactly the insurance companies are doing to jack up prices. Is it just a simple case of gauging? Most insurance companies to be almost always be profitable, so it's not like they are ever in danger of losing money. Maybe they are whoring themselves to some of their major stakeholders. Your tobacco thing is a good example. When the Surgeon General says, "smoking will kill your azz," then that's something that can really move the public. I haven't seen something this dramatic with a simple soundbyte of what's going on with insurance companies, even though that's what's needed. "Need a rectal exam? Why bother, your insurance company gives you one every time they send you a bill."

Insurance companies purposefully make it hard to collect on claims, and they refuse to adapt universal forms or policies, which in turn forces all health care providers to hire numerous people to fight the bureacracy wars against the insurance companies. They routinely challenge valid charges simply to engage you in a protracted struggle in order to delay payment.

Secondly, as they are a percentage industry they actually have a disincentive to control medical costs of all sorts in the long run, even as they will go to the mat to not pay for that aspirin your doctor gave you in the short run. This has a particularly large impact in regard to torts and the wasteful defensive medicine that they spawn. Simply by settling weak cases rather than litigating them they can collect huge sums in perpetuity from health care providers who may have done no wrong, but never got a chance to prove that in court. The health care provider gets a black mark on their record, and their malpractice insurance rates go through the roof.

	17-06-2005 15:47									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Exactly. Why does it seem like almost every nation on the planet Earth has a better healthcare system for it's citizens than the U.S.? A healthy populace equals a more productive populace equals more profits...but it seems like the healthcare industry in America has it's talons too far deep into American politics.

Because the US was designed to be run by and for rich people. Easy question to answer really.

	17-06-2005 16:47									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Exactly. Why does it seem like almost every nation on the planet Earth has a better healthcare system for it's citizens than the U.S.? A healthy populace equals a more productive populace equals more profits...but it seems like the healthcare industry in America has it's talons too far deep into American politics. (but I apologize for my own personal beliefs. I'll try and keep this objective) How much in taxes do you have to pay, aneeshm? Syke-Of course I don't mean "free", when I mean free healthcare. I'm talking about serious medical happenstance (exploding appendix, puncture wound in my foot from surfing, for example). All these bullsh** plastic surgery things that are going on in America need not apply. If it isn't broke, don't fix it I say. (But corrective eye surgery wouldn't be considered 'cosmetic' IMHO). But if you want a new pair of boobies, you should be prepared to pay an arm and a leg.

I'm currently a minor , so I pay no taxes . But my dad has to pay to the rate of about 20 % of our income .

One of my points , however , is that the costs I quoted are not for governmental healthcare - these are the prices for an average private hospital . In government hospitals , the costa are minimal , negligible if you are from/above the middle class .

In areas like mental health , where there is little incentive for private palyers to invest , the government-run NIMHANS ( National Institute of Mental Health and Neuro Sciences ) is the only and the best place in the country - the elite doctors with loads of experience can all be found there .

If a state-run service has achieved this in India , then what is the American problem ? The Indian state is much more corrupt and inefficient that its American counterpart , and we have less money , nor do we have the extensive state medical infrastructure the USA has built up , so how do we still come out better on costs ?

Heard reports of "health" tourism anywhere ? This is when a company ties up with a good Indian hospital and an international airline to ferry patients from the USA to India , get them treated , and ferry them back . Why ? Because it's much cheaper for the patients that way .

	18-06-2005 05:11									#72
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quote: Why does it seem like almost every nation on the planet Earth has a better healthcare system for it's citizens than the U.S.?

Eh? America has probably the highest quality healthcare system on Earth. It's just expensive...

	18-06-2005 05:21									#73
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Something is seriously screwed up in the American system , and I'm at a loss as to what it is . In India , we can get x-rays done for 100 Rs. to 200 Rs. ( which is all less than five dollars ) . Band Aids are less than five rupees ( 20 cents ) . WTF is going on in American healthcare ? Even some of my relatives who went to America and are doctors said that the costs are way too high .

That paperwork/bureaucratic/administrative costs associated with American healthcare are insanely high, that's why it costs so much (for the most part). The rate of increase in American heal-care costs is not sustainable, especially with the costs of employer-provided health insurance doing a lot of damage to a lot of American companies while at the same time people who lose their job being of so very ****ed. It just can't continue this way, something's got to give.

What's the health care system like in Japan?

	18-06-2005 05:29									#74
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quote: What's the health care system like in Japan?

I should be the one to answer this question, but I can't. I avoid the Japanese health care system...

	18-06-2005 05:42									#75
	Put an end to popups!

The point of the show in "30 days" (on the show itself, it was a very good show and I recommend everyone watch the episode, speically the part about what free things there are to do in Columbus...) is that the US has top notch "sick care". If you get sick, US hospitals are second to none. But the US system is terrible in making sure you don;t get sick.

Take what occured in the show. Because Spurlock was not insured, he had to go to the emergency room to get a sprained writs checked- and the bill came out to over 800 dollars. $400 of that simply for walking into the emergency room. That is a complete waste, specially of the time of the staff of the emergency room, and its horribly inefficient.

A health care system designed to keep people from getting sick, which I can only imagine as being universal and thus public, would in the long run have vastly smaller costs than one that lets people get sick to the point drastic and expensive measures must be taken.

	18-06-2005 06:19									#76
	Re: Re: '30 Days' Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Sikander No country on earth has "free" medical care, such a thing is impossible unless that "care" consisted of no one doing anything for you.

Or someone helping you volountairily.

	18-06-2005 06:44									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident And she's not being sued.

Wrong. She's not being sued . . . yet! That's an important distinction. Right now, the families are in greiving mode, but they will sue her and her insurance company if they fail to offer the family enough money to cover costs plus pain and suffering (not that that can be quantified).

	18-06-2005 06:52									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Why does it seem like almost every nation on the planet Earth has a better healthcare system for it's citizens than the U.S.? Eh? America has probably the highest quality healthcare system on Earth. It's just expensive...

You can only say that by ignoring the people who can't afford treatment or who bankrupt themselves because of healthcosts, and that even includes people with insurnace. American healthcare is next to useless for a large segment of our population, no matter how "great" it is. A system you can't use has no quality. Thus, even Cuba's health care pwns the **** out of America's.

	18-06-2005 07:27									#79
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We don't have a half-ways decent helthcare system because special intrest groups are good at convincing people that nationalized healthcare is bad (usually by grossly exagerating Canada's few problems way out of proprtion) and cause your taxes to go up.

	18-06-2005 10:14									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski This i find very entertaining Franky prolly gona choke after he reads it . My 14 yo old just had to have his appendix out last month. I just got a break down from insurance co. on the cost of the whole deal er charges ex rays and 3 day stay in hospital or 2 .5 day stay and surgery cost totaled 67,000 dollars. my part is 3500.00 dollars

Wait, HOW MUCH WAS THE FRICKEN BILL???

67 THOUSAND FRIGGIN DOLLARS??? And worse off, you're paying roughly half of the bill. WTF is wrong with that shite. See, that kind of surgery is necessary....and should be covered. But all that cosmetic shite should be paid out of pocket.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But still....67K? That's friggin messed up. And I thought MY bill was bad.

	18-06-2005 10:16									#81
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You can only say that by ignoring the people who can't afford treatment or who bankrupt themselves because of healthcosts, and that even includes people with insurnace. American healthcare is next to useless for a large segment of our population, no matter how "great" it is. A system you can't use has no quality. Thus, even Cuba's health care pwns the **** out of America's.

I agree with you on this.

	18-06-2005 11:37									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Wait, HOW MUCH WAS THE FRICKEN BILL??? 67 THOUSAND FRIGGIN DOLLARS??? And worse off, you're paying roughly half of the bill.

I read $3500 not $35000, still shitty though, all insurance companies can suck my ass. Biggest ****ing racket in America.

	18-06-2005 11:51									#83
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Dude, both my mom and my dad said that the Insurance Industry in America is legal loansharking there ever was.


And my parents are Democrat and Republican. When you have both sides of the argument growing up, how can you go wrong? It's all about the 'Almighty Dollar' now, and not about "United We Stand".

Sucks. Anyway, ignore my biases. '30 Days' is still a very good program to watch. The next one is hormone therapy for a male. I really wanna see it. This guy "Spurlock" or whatever has me hooked.

	18-06-2005 12:11									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Insurance companies purposefully make it hard to collect on claims, and they refuse to adapt universal forms or policies, which in turn forces all health care providers to hire numerous people to fight the bureacracy wars against the insurance companies. They routinely challenge valid charges simply to engage you in a protracted struggle in order to delay payment. Secondly, as they are a percentage industry they actually have a disincentive to control medical costs of all sorts in the long run, even as they will go to the mat to not pay for that aspirin your doctor gave you in the short run. This has a particularly large impact in regard to torts and the wasteful defensive medicine that they spawn. Simply by settling weak cases rather than litigating them they can collect huge sums in perpetuity from health care providers who may have done no wrong, but never got a chance to prove that in court. The health care provider gets a black mark on their record, and their malpractice insurance rates go through the roof.

That a nice explanation, now how can we break it down into a 8 word soundbyte?

	18-06-2005 14:15									#85
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quote: 67 THOUSAND FRIGGIN DOLLARS???

Which is insane. Even with no insurance or anything I can't imagine that costing more than a tenth of that in Korea and no more than a little of that is due to a difference in labor costs etc. the big difference is the insane amount of medical-industry bureaucracy and general inefficiency of the US health care system.

Korean health care: fast, dirt cheap and mediocre

	20-06-2005 11:01									#86
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http://www.econopundit.com/archive/...893091860312280

Interesting...

Last edited by Drake Tungsten on 20-06-2005 at 19:15

	20-06-2005 12:43									#87
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I'm seeing a whole lot of opinion and guess work but little to know actual facts based discussion from that blog. Typical of most blogs on the net really.

	20-06-2005 19:09									#88
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Funny, I saw a bunch of questions...

edit: Then again, you probably never saw the post on 30 Days I was trying to link to. The damn permalink isn't working for some reason...

Last edited by Drake Tungsten on 20-06-2005 at 19:16