16-06-2005 12:03									#1
	'30 Days' Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I just watched the 30 days by the guy who did the "Super Size Me" movie.

I. Am. Amazed.

I watched the one where he did the 30 days living just off of minimum wage (5.15 US) What hit me the most is when he showed his hospital bill and it showed that he owed 40.00 US for a frigging Band-Aid. Then he said that the United States is the richest country in the world and yet we can't afford proper care for our citizens.

He went on to say that the person next to you (in America) is probably struggling everyday to see ends meet and yet we don't see it nor realize it.

Holy sh*t, I'm hooked on the program. Ok, now lemme ask this...

WHY doesn't the U.S. have free medical? Is the medical industry preventing us from having affordable, or free, medical assistance?

	16-06-2005 12:13									#2
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First of all the Super Size me guy is the ****.

I highly recommend the Super Size Me DVD because it has some nice extras, including an experiment with McDonald's fries.

Regarding the lack of universal health care. It is a joke. This is something we NEED in our country today. People (including myself) don't realize how everything in life becomes 100 times harder when you aren't living healthy. Having your health is the most important thing in your life, and forms the foundation and impacts your level of success more than most other factors. I would say the only other factor that is more important is if you live in a dangerous neighborhood.

I think alot of the lack of universal healthcare has to do with the current privitization whoring and "omg big government will ruin us!" philosophy that is being pushed by the people in charge. Privitization is NOT a panacea.

I think we can build on our private system and build universal healthcare in a way that doesn't bankrupt anybody.

Often times taxpayers are stuck with the bill for uninsured people seeking medical attention, anyway.


Regarding the high costs of medical supplies, I believe most people will say this is because of rising insurance costs. It seems at a first look, that medical malpractice suits are to blame, but at second look, many people, (both liberal and conservative) say that the insurance companies themselves are to blame for skyrocketing insurance costs.

I don't know what to believe. Though I do believe in capping malpractice suits.

	16-06-2005 12:21									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan WHY doesn't the U.S. have free medical? Is the medical industry preventing us from having affordable, or free, medical assistance?

That would be pure communism I tell you. And capitalism makes everyone rich, so there's nothing to worry about.

	16-06-2005 12:25									#4
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	16-06-2005 13:28									#5
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Dudes,

I gotta agree. Lemme tell you this,

I went in to a hospital about two months ago after a surfing incident where I punctured my foot. I took some x-rays. Anyway, I got the bill two days ago and the bill just from the x-rays was

	16-06-2005 13:35									#6
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quote: Pardon my bias, but please explain to me why America (as one of the richest nations on Earth) doesn't have free medical aid to it's citizens.

Because it would be a huge financial burden on the government (on top of the already huge burdens of Social Security and Medicare) and would have an adverse effect on the American economy by raising taxes across the board. Just look at Europe for an example of what we should be trying to avoid.

Dumping SS in favor of a nationalized health care system would be a better idea, but I don't see than being possible politically.

	16-06-2005 14:17									#7
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He actually stole the minimum wage idea from a Turkish reality show, but that's cool -- I was hoping someone would steal it!

I've read that one of the later espisodes features an ex-military straight-arrow Christian from Nebraska living for 30 Days in the Castro (San Francisco's gay -- maybe that should be "gayest"? -- neighborhood). Sounds great.

But I don't have FX, dammit.

	16-06-2005 14:28									#8
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So? There is not a country on this planet that makes living on minimum wage comfortable and nice. Even if you have 'free healthcare' you still pay for it in taxes and you pay up to some point of money per year anyway in hard cash to boot it up. If you make minimum wage, you are not meeting that one anyway. In the nation of people going on surgery for fat, diabetics, etc etc, free healthcare will be too costly for you guys, even when it's the richest country on earth. OR it can be done, but it can not cover everything, just the most common basic things. It will lead the healthcare into spiral of things, some negative, some good, but at the end, it'll be the same as now, or little better, or little worse.

right wing hates poor people, left wing doesn't know what can be done in the real world and that there are other scenarios than the flower scenario when you follow rhetorics.

You think getting x-rays is cheap? in here you are lucky to get an x-ray, why, because it costs. So if you have pain somewhere, better give you some pain killers instead. When doctors are there also to save money, you get ****ed up situation where no one gets treated anymore but thrown out on any excuse. That's seriously not taking care of everyone in need. That's when no one gets treated, rich or poor. So at the end, you end up paying for it the full amount ... even the lefties in here knows it, because it's not something I'm making up or urban legend, it's the 100% reality and truth.
Oh but you have the money for it, so it won't be a problem.... no you don't.

	16-06-2005 14:42									#9
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but can it be done on any level? Sure... But what must be understood that it's not the holy grail. If you say well I'm all for taking up everyone, well that's good, so am I. But when you say that and it's not what will happen, then what good was it anyway than nice words? So.. it can be done, but if anyone thinks they will still recieve quality service for free is simply living in lalaland. You get treated for small things, the common things, but everything else that requires more than 10 minute face to face with doctor, you pay the same private sector money. So isn't that still a good thing? Maybe yeah.. but the poor people will still be screwed at the end.

	16-06-2005 15:39									#10
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quote: I gotta agree. Lemme tell you this, I went in to a hospital about two months ago after a surfing incident where I punctured my foot. I took some x-rays. Anyway, I got the bill two days ago and the bill just from the x-rays was $185.00 Luckily I have medical insurance (government employed), or else I would have been paying my ass off just for the x-rays alone...the hospital visit alone was a hell of a lot. Like the wiseman Ted kind of touched one, the cost of medical malpractice suits have seemingly risen the cost of medical care a lot, but holy f'ing crap. That is ridiculous. If I wasn't covered, I would be screwed...and I'm government insured. Now, how many people in the U.S. alone aren't even insured at all.......THEN we can figure out how much the unseen American taxpayer is being screwed over.

I've had a similar experience. My sandals had lost their grooves due to overuse. So, one rainy day at school, I slipped on some stairs and fell several steps lower. And then I got up, and slipped again and landed right on my back another few steps lower.

So, I decide to go to my school's health clinic, and they do some x-rays (luckily nothing broken/cracked), and they charged me around $150... And apparantly my mom's insurance was too shitty to cover UT's halfassed services, and I had to pay the whole thing out of my pocket (and even though I work for one of the profs part time, I don't get any insurance coverage from the school). Loans.

	16-06-2005 16:04									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Pardon my bias, but please explain to me why America (as one of the richest nations on Earth) doesn't have free medical aid to it's citizens. Because it would be a huge financial burden on the government (on top of the already huge burdens of Social Security and Medicare) and would have an adverse effect on the American economy by raising taxes across the board. Just look at Europe for an example of what we should be trying to avoid. Dumping SS in favor of a nationalized health care system would be a better idea, but I don't see than being possible politically.

Come on, man. Ok, I dunno about you, but I'd rather take a 50 percent cut in SS for a 100 percent coverage of medical aid. Just imagine if the government paid the bill for your medical expenses, LEGITIMATE though.

All these fat ass American's complaining about back problems wouldn't get a lead cent...obescety doesn't count in my book....eat a fricken salad. But for real reasons. Sure, I'll pay an extra dollar for taxes just to know that IF I ever need medical assistance, it'll be there.

But again, freeloaders need not apply. I'd rather dump their ass on the street than give them a free ride. Obescety-related illnesses wouldn't count towards the 'free medical aid'.

	16-06-2005 16:14									#12
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quote: Come on, man. Ok, I dunno about you, but I'd rather take a 50 percent cut in SS for a 100 percent coverage of medical aid.

I would too. Doesn't mean it has any shot of happening though, which it doesn't. Not while the baby boomers are still alive and voting, at least.

quote: But again, freeloaders need not apply.

You say that, but I doubt that's how it will work in practice. Freeloaders always manage to get theirs, particularly with massive government programs like the one you're proposing.

	16-06-2005 16:27									#13
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The single payer systems that the Canucks and a lot of the Euros have are far more cost efficient than the rediculous mess that we have.

	16-06-2005 16:31									#14
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Which is why I'm not so opposed to a national heath-care system if we ditch the ridiculous mess we have right now. But on top of that mess? Hell no...

	16-06-2005 17:32									#15
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I don't see how SS has anything to do with this... And medicare is already a single payer system (for old people).

	16-06-2005 18:07									#16
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quote: ex-military straight-arrow Christian from Nebraska

When was Drake in the army?

	16-06-2005 18:20									#17
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Universial Healthcare:
Why: I like our quality. Best quality medical care on the planet (but we do pay out the ass for it).

Malpractice caps:
Why: I'm still trying to think of a reason why this would be a bad thing. Anybody got an answer to this?

Insurance:
Why: Biggest horseshit rip off industry in the US. Unfortunately, it is a nessecary evil for somethings...

	16-06-2005 18:23									#18
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quote: When was Drake in the army?

When was I a straight-arrow? Or a Christian?

quote: I don't see how SS has anything to do with this...

Of course the single biggest program in our budget has nothing to do with whether adding further budgetary burdens is a good idea or not.

I was talking more about Medicare when referring to the "ridiculous mess" anyway.

	16-06-2005 18:25									#19
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Publically supported care doesn't have to be that expensive. South Korean taxes are very low (10% sales tax, very very low income taxes, some corporate taxes and excise taxes on some high end/imported goods) but the government supports things enough that for $20/month insurance I paid $3 for a doctor visit and $70 for a pretty fun bit of surgery with pointy things stuck up my sinuses (and $3 a visit for a bunch of check-ups after it). Drugs are dirt cheap too.

Of course the medical care is a bit, um, rushed on occasion (no rules about how long doctors have to spend with each patient and very little malpractice litigation) so as soon as the doctor knows what's up you get a perscriptions and they send in the next person. They go through patients fast enough that you almost never have to wait for anything.

Its far from perfect, and if I had any kind of major surgery I'd be very leery of using anything but the university hospitals but overall I really really think that the US needs a system that provides Korea-level medical care to everyone for free (the way things operate here it probably costs less than we're already paying for Medicare and Medicaid) and then if people want more than that they (or their employers) can pay for that.

	16-06-2005 18:31									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Just look at Europe for an example of what we should be trying to avoid.

High standards of living?

	16-06-2005 18:33									#21
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America has a higher standard of living, less unemployment and better economic growth.

edit: My favorite recent quote...

quote: "The French social model isn't a model, because no one wants to emulate it. It's not social, because its caused record unemployment." - Patrick Devedjian

	16-06-2005 18:38									#22
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quote: Of course the single biggest program in our budget has nothing to do with whether adding further budgetary burdens is a good idea or not.

Seeing as how SS is pulling a surplus, and will continue to do so for a few decades, no.

quote: I was talking more about Medicare when referring to the "ridiculous mess" anyway.

Medicare is considerably more efficient than private health insurance.

	16-06-2005 19:01									#23
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In terms of administrative costs, we spend $752 per capita more than Canada each year according to a recent study. So a single payer system would save around a couple hundred billion dollars in terms of administrative costs, which is far more than needed to insure everyone currently uninsured.

quote: The gap between US and Canadian spending on healthcare administration has grown to $752 per capita, according to the New England Journal of Medicine, reporting August 21 on the findings of researchers at Harvard Medical School and the Canadian Institute for Health Information. "A decade ago, the administrative costs of healthcare in the United States greatly exceeded those in Canada. We investigated whether the ascendancy of computerization, managed care, and the adoption of more businesslike approaches to healthcare have decreased administrative costs," NEJM editors wrote. "A large sum might be saved in the United States if administrative costs could be trimmed by implementing a Canadian-style healthcare system," journal editors concluded. Healthcare bureaucracy cost Americans $294.3 billion in 1999. The $1,059 per capita spent on healthcare administration was more than three times the $307 per capita in paperwork costs under Canada's national health insurance system. Cutting US health bureaucracy costs to the Canadian level would have saved $209 billion in 1999.

http://abilitymagazine.com/news_CanadianHealthCare.html

	16-06-2005 21:09									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten America has a higher standard of living, less unemployment and better economic growth.

Not than Canada it doesn't.

	16-06-2005 21:12									#25
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We don't have it because Southern politicians were worried it would lead to segregated hospitals. Later, Nixon, who was also a proponent of it, was crippled by Watergate. After that, the GOP was taken over by conservatives.

	16-06-2005 21:16									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Malpractice caps: Why: I'm still trying to think of a reason why this would be a bad thing. Anybody got an answer to this?

Why should the government set a limit on punitive damages if the doctor cuts the wrong leg off? You still need to have the other leg removed, so now you're limited to a quarter million dollars for your loss and you can never walk again. Is that anything close to a fair trade?

The problem isn't malpractice awards, it's unrestricted raising of premiums. Caps have not produced savings anywhere they've been tried . . except for the profits of the insurance companies.

	16-06-2005 21:26									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Because it would be a huge financial burden on the government

WRONG!

http://www.justhealthcare.org/

	16-06-2005 21:26									#28
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The Wall Street Journal did an interesting article on malpractice caps, especially pain and suffering. At least in Texas, is your spouse is a stay-at-home mom and get's killed due to medical malpractice, as long as the doctor and hospital pay all the expenses you cannot show sufficient economic damage to get the vast majority of law firms to sue. The $250,000 cap means that the $100,000 expense to get the case to court - expert witnesses, depositions, discovery, etc. - eats up the profits to the point you cannot get lawyers to take the case on contigency fees. There's not enough money to recover. So mommies are now economically worthless, at least to the courts (modern weregeld). The Great, Christian state of Texas.

	16-06-2005 21:39									#29
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There is no such thing as "free" healthcare.

Ramo - You might end up with a less expensive system but our model is the last one you would want to emulate. A healthcare system that leaves HUGE numbers of citizens unable to even find a family physician and allows citizens to die on wait lists that are too long is not one you want for your family.

	16-06-2005 21:49									#30
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I went to a cosmetic surgery

3 euros

free student healthcare