21-06-2005 21:45									#31
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first off thanks for the pic...good plan...

secondly over the SP is there a chance that any other faction will build it before the PK? and if yes how big of a chance...because if someone else i going to build it before the PK there is no reason to stall the assault..even if the AA are in transtit to a other base we can still try to take it

	21-06-2005 22:25									#32
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No-one else has started it, although the Gaians and Angels both have the technology.

The Angels have started the Cyborg Factory, (they have MMI) but we know that they want the Ascetic Virtues - but don't have the technology. My guess is that they'll switch to the AV as soon as they get Planetary Economics)

So the NA might be available to us as soon as we get NG - if we want it (it will use up our 1/2 SP ginfreighter, though)

	21-06-2005 22:31									#33
	Increase the size of your Attachments

(We also have a little bit of back-up just passed thru the Styx channel - a slower trannie (3 mp's plus the 2 MCC bonus mps) - they'll be at the captured PK base in 4 turns, and the trannie has an impact infantryman and a Longstrider probe team on board)

We can probably accelerate their arrival if we send the Heimdall back towards it after it has unloaded, the trannie can then transfer its 2 units to the faster Heimdall - might get there a turn quicker

	21-06-2005 23:51									#34
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how many moves does the transport (the cruiser) have...if it faster if the cruiser has to move les then half of its MPs back....(i used this a lot in second front scenario for civII)

	22-06-2005 00:30									#35
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The cruiser transport has 7 mp's, the regular trannie has 5

But the crusier will be staged 2 tiles outside the base, and will enter it (albeit thru fungus) after it's been taken by the Pathfinder group. I'm thinking it can then exit that same turn (maybe just into the fungus tile), and next turn prolly be able to rendezvous with the trannie when it's exhausted its mp's and bring the boys in

I'll see if I can do a screenie of how it might look.

	22-06-2005 01:08									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'll see if I can do a screenie of how it might look.

Little bit fussy, but here it is.

trannie in white, cruiser transport in yellow

2176 turn: trannie, starting on position white 1, moves 5 tiles to position 2. Cruiser likewise, starting on position yellow 1 moves to join the pathfinder group at staging point (yellow 2))

2177 turn: trannie moves 5 more east to white 3, and after airforce has denuded base, and pathfinder group landed and secured base, cruiser docks, unloads, then exits to wait at position 3 (might actually have 1 more mp left - not sure of the fungus effect)

2178: trannie moves 5 tiles to position white 4 for handoff. Cruiser moves 2 (maybe just 1, see above) and takes transfer, then heads back to base and docks the infantryman and the longstrider (its own yellow 4)

	22-06-2005 01:17									#37
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this only works if the cruiser can get on white 4 ofcourse...then the ground groups can only move into the base from the cruiser losing 1 mp...but still better then waiting one turn...

	22-06-2005 02:00									#38
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Well, by my reckoning the cruiser will be able to enter the base (we'll have captured it) so the 2 units might still have mp's left. But they are intended to be the garrison troops anyway.

It means that we essentially can empty the captured base of those advance units, secure in the knowledge that a Covert ops defender and a Missile infantryman are going to be arriving to garrison it

	22-06-2005 13:19									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Ooh - we can mind control that blocking rover with untracreable capture (75% effective" - that doesn't trigger vendetta either!! - so maybe we want the100% odds of revealed mind control - that prolly would trigger vendetta)

What happens in 25% of the cases the untraceable capture is ineffective?

	22-06-2005 16:02									#40
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the probe is destroyed before the action and they find out from who it is or they dont (thus declaring vendetta or not)

the probe is destroyed after the action and they find out from who it is or they dont (thus declaring vendetta or not but we have the unit)

i think that are the options

	22-06-2005 18:09									#41
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So we run the risk of ending up in Vendetta a year before we're ready?

	22-06-2005 18:14									#42
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In all the sims I ran, an elite probe succeeds in controlling 2 units, a veteran fails at the first attempt

	23-06-2005 04:15									#43
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I just tried it myself once and ended up in Vendetta.

For what it's worth, I'd vote against mind controlling a PK unit this turn.

	23-06-2005 05:01									#44
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We'll need four B-6s ready in MY 2177 for a succesful attack: three to attack the UN Planning Authority plasma sentinels and one to attack the UNHQ plasma sentinels. Unfortunately only three B-6s will make it to Iaci Base this year. So how about upgrading the undamaged disciplined B-4 in Iaci Base to a B-6?

I noticed the PK missile needlejet is in Temple of Sol. Assuming it stays there, it could counterattack UNHQ after we captured it. To prevent that, how about flying out our F-6 this year already, so it's in range of UNHQ and can land there next turn?

Question: Will the Tiger's Claw (?) transport land its unit at UN Planning Authority after its capture, or invade UN Great Refuge?

Another question: will the two rovers in UN Planning Authority be attacked by B-4s or land troops?

	23-06-2005 10:17									#45
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Update at end of 2176 turn - where the boys are .......

(The Steppenwolf and the R-112 are amphi-units)

Attachment: 2176 - op pw staging.gif
This has been downloaded 38 time(s).

	23-06-2005 10:30									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac So how about upgrading the undamaged disciplined B-4 in Iaci Base to a B-6?

Done (see turn thread)

quote: I noticed the PK missile needlejet is in Temple of Sol. Assuming it stays there, it could counterattack UNHQ after we captured it. To prevent that, how about flying out our F-6 this year already, so it's in range of UNHQ and can land there next turn?

Done (you can just see it to the bottom right of the pic above, astride the main road between the 2 bases)

quote: Question: Will the Tiger's Claw (?) transport land its unit at UN Planning Authority after its capture, or invade UN Great Refuge?

I'd thought that after transferring its units to the cruiser, they'd dock at Planning Authority and proceed from there

quote: Another question: will the two rovers in UN Planning Authority be attacked by B-4s or land troops?

I'd say by the B-4's

Which begs the further question ... should we start our Strategic Air Reserves (3 of the four B-4's currently at MT) on their way to Iaci? They'd take 2 turns to get there, so wouldn't be operational until the 2178 year. But that's the year that the entire invasion airforce will be standing down as they return from their 2177 mission, so we have some flexibility to counter attack - or choke access - if Lal doesn't cave in immediately

	23-06-2005 11:32									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Which begs the further question ... should we start our Strategic Air Reserves (3 of the four B-4's currently at MT) on their way to Iaci? They'd take 2 turns to get there, so wouldn't be operational until the 2178 year. But that's the year that the entire invasion airforce will be standing down as they return from their 2177 mission, so we have some flexibility to counter attack - or choke access - if Lal doesn't cave in immediately

Yup, bring them in.

	23-06-2005 17:13									#48
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quote: Another question: will the two rovers in UN Planning Authority be attacked by B-4s or land troops? I'd say by the B-4's

We need to be careful here: Attacks by air on the last defender destroy the AA in the base. If we want to capture that, we'll need to take on the last Rover from the sea, with an amphiunit (of which we have 2 in the invasion force)

	25-06-2005 05:56									#49
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I compiled the suggestions together in an attack plan suggestion:

• If Lal doesn't declare vendetta by our request to withdraw his troops, we open the war by letting TH's probe team openly mind control the nearby PK rover, provoking a vendetta while keeping the Angels out.
  
• The veteran B-6 attacks the hardened plasma sentinels in UNHQ.
  
• The three other B-6s available in Iaci Base deal with the weaker green plasma sentinels in UN Planning Authority (UNPA).
  
• Attack UN Commerce Committee (UNCC) with the fully healthy veteran B-4. Attacking the base with a land unit seems difficult: they'd only have 1/3 movement points left when the troops arrive at the gates of UNCC. Googlie noted that air attacks might destroy artifacts. While I've also had that happen sometimes, other times I do get the artifacts transported to a base. Eg we got that artifact currently in Tegea Harbour by attacking it with a B-6. So I guess we'd have to count on some luck.
  
• Will we use those two damaged B-4s in IB for attacks??
  
• Move the Tiger's Claw next to UNPA and greenlight an amphib missile rover for attack (unless the B-4s mentioned above will deal with it of course).
  
• Oh I just figured out: we definitely DO NOT want to attack the last UNPA defender with a land unit on that transport: the artifact will disappear instead of being transmitted to the (full) transport. So to answer my earlier question: perhaps attacking the last defender with the 40% damaged B-4 might be advised.
  
• Capture UNPA with the amphib missile rover (R-112?) that has one MP remaining.
  
• Move both the Tiger's Claw and the Pegasus in UNPA. Now we have three rovers (Janissaries, Steppenwolfs & Jaded Jaguars) in there with their full movement points left, meaning they can reach UNHQ & UNCC if they encounter no further opposition.
  
• This leaves us with no forces to attack UN Great Refuge though as far as I can see.
  
• Empty UN High Commission (UNHC) with the B-6 in TH. Perhaps let the B-6 fly towards its target along the road, and drive the mind-controlled rover (if it has MPs left of course) under the B-6, so it can reach UNHC without zones of control troubles.
  
• Use the probe team to steal Neural Grafting.
  
• Capture UNHC.

Last edited by Maniac on 25-06-2005 at 06:01

	25-06-2005 17:51									#50
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Hmm - I wonder what the cost would be to mind control UN Planning Aithority itself? Even if ~500 credits it'd be worth it, IMO, as we'd get a super standing army (and all units within the base radius as well, so there might be formers or other military units around that we currently can't see)

One downside, though, is that we'd need then to swiftly research silksteel alloys so that we could continue the MM's using silksteel armor for the prototypes (as we'd have control of 3 plasma armored units, and thus couldn't prototype it any more)

But definitely worth it, I think, if we can afford it, even if it almost depletes our treasury to zero (we'll get some energy credits when we conquer additional bases, and a whole lot more when Lal finally surrenders)

	25-06-2005 18:18									#51
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Good idea. Slowly but surely, the Worm-hunting project becomes useful.

	25-06-2005 18:32									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Hmm - I wonder what the cost would be to mind control UN Planning Aithority itself? Even if ~500 credits it'd be worth it, IMO, as we'd get a super standing army (and all units within the base radius as well, so there might be formers or other military units around that we currently can't see) One downside, though, is that we'd need then to swiftly research silksteel alloys so that we could continue the MM's using silksteel armor for the prototypes (as we'd have control of 3 plasma armored units, and thus couldn't prototype it any more) But definitely worth it, I think, if we can afford it, even if it almost depletes our treasury to zero (we'll get some energy credits when we conquer additional bases, and a whole lot more when Lal finally surrenders)

Sorry to sound critical, but:

• With what probe team?
  
• What super standing army?
  
• When could we get silksteel?

	25-06-2005 18:54									#53
	Inflate your Upload Space

the northern task force has a longstrider on board - he could disembark onto the forest tile north of the monoloth and commence probe action with his second mp

the "standing army" would be the 3 plasma sentinels and 2 unity rovers in the base, plus any other units within the base radius

We need AST before even getting offered Silksteel Alloys - we'll prolly have chaos weapons to prototype sooner than we get silksteel anyways.

(And per the simulator, it'd cost 632 credits to mc the base itself)

I say we discuss it fully - pros and cons - that's a whopping army to get immediately and could prolly let us overrun all our 5 intended targets (maybe more) in one fell swoop

	25-06-2005 19:04									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie (And per the simulator, it'd cost 632 credits to mc the base itself)

we currently have 477 credits, and will get another 17 next turn from commerce plus 25 from the stockpile energy bug. If we do go ahead, then maybe we should sell a tech or 2 to lal first, as well as tapping Zak for some credits (we can recoup 40 by selling off the perimeter defenses at PA and HQ - they don't get destroyed in bombing raids)

	25-06-2005 20:58									#55
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2 ideas:
- Can we attack another base first and then get the credits from its conquest (UNGR)?
- Instead of stealing Neural Grafting this turn, use the probe team to steal money.

	26-06-2005 06:03									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie the "standing army" would be the 3 plasma sentinels and 2 unity rovers in the base, plus any other units within the base radius ... (And per the simulator, it'd cost 632 credits to mc the base itself)

Those five units together are worth 100 minerals. Even if we could get another 100 minerals worth of units parked just outside UNPA, is that worth paying 632 credits?

If we wanted extra units, wouldn't building them ourselves cheaper and give higher morale?

I also don't see how they could immediately help capture more bases. The plasma sentinels are defensive, and the rovers are neither good for offense or defense until upgraded (which costs more money).

quote: We need AST before even getting offered Silksteel Alloys - we'll prolly have chaos weapons to prototype sooner than we get silksteel anyways.

I agree we'll probably get Chaos weapons sooner. Eg Yang is currently researching that. But what if he's unwilling to talk to us or trade to us? By mind controlling plasma units we could loose the best method we currently have to hurry production and boost our economy for a looooong time.

	26-06-2005 06:05									#57
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Good points, V

here's a nice touch (using maniac's simulator):

sim, as set up, has th4 PK reserves at 629 credits, so the cost to mindcontrol PA is, as stated, 632. If successful, we get 1536 credits transferred from the nets to our account!!!!!

If i set the sim to the actual PK reserves (629), then the cost to mc the base grows to 728, but if successful, our bank account swells by 2516 credits (and lal's drops to zero - he doesn't even go into deficit)

Definitely worth doing, even if we have to steal from lal beforehand (we get 62 credits if we steal energy from High Commission) and extort from Zak (he'll give us 100 credits) and sell a facility or two if this is an exploitable bug in the game (it might, of course, just be a bug in the scenario editor)

	26-06-2005 08:27									#58
	Remove this text

Here's the simulation updated with our units in position (except for the three B-4's in transit - they'll just be landing next turn - and also the slow trannie with the Crypteia and impact infantryman aboard)

There's a scenario (.SC) version as well as a straightforward .sav (which starts with the Longsrider flashing)

Attachment: operation pw.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	26-06-2005 08:40									#59
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LOL - I played with the .sav version, and straighaway called Lal, and sold him PE for 25 credits.

he wanted to pact, but i said no, then asked him for a loan - he gave me ~200 credits. then i extorted 81 from Zak, and engaged mind control to get the Planning Authority base - and got over 1500 credits from thin air!!!

	27-06-2005 18:51									#60
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It seems the others have played fast this turn: we'll get the turn wednesday noon CET at the latest.

It means we must:
1) be ready with all beforehand questions.
2) agree on when we'll do the Live Invasion (depends on the speed of Morgan)