20-06-2005 00:12									#61
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And how is Hong Kong different from China itself? They had a democratic system that seems highly popular and they are Chinese (yes, the system set up by the UK, but the participants are Chinese). I don;t see Chinatown's around the world as dens of undemocratic corruption, anymore than any other ethnic neighborhoods- that's one reaosn why I perhaps don;t buy the "culture" arguement heavily.

Actually, China-towns contain a lot of corruption and guanxi. Foreigners are generally excluded. Hong Kong is different having been under foreign rule, but some of it is still there. Come to mainland China. Look past the surface that is designed to decieve, you will see.

	20-06-2005 00:50									#62
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quote: Originally posted by GePap That is bad health policy, not immoral health policy.

Bad health policy that disregards the danger to the entire world for short-term monetary benefits is immoral and evil.

quote: Would you claim that SA's AIDs policy under the M'Beki government puts the whole world in danger by allowing more cases of a disaese that has already killed 20 Million plus? (as opposed to an unknown danger?)

Yes.

	20-06-2005 04:42									#63
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Why the constant attack on China despite there being much worse regimes elsewhere? For the same reason that 20 years ago there were constant attacks on the Soviet Union despite there being much worse regimes elsewhere. Fear.

Fear that another power, with different values and interests will outcompete us. May supercede us. May defeat us. Yes, it's fear.

	20-06-2005 05:42									#64
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quote: Why the constant attack on China despite there being much worse regimes elsewhere?

Why the constant attack on the US despite there being much worse regimes elswehwere?

quote: Fear that another power, with different values and interests will outcompete us. May supercede us. May defeat us. Yes, it's fear.

There's also the whole nuke issue.

	20-06-2005 05:50									#65
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In case you hadn't noticed, DaShi, there were two anti-China threads on the front page today. You made an anti-China post for no reason in an unrelated thread, and there are half a dozen, plus, Chinese flag monsters as avatars.

Che just showed how, shall we say, clueless he is.

	20-06-2005 05:52									#66
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I pointed that out

	20-06-2005 05:53									#67
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Hmm. Shows how much of the thread I read.

	20-06-2005 06:48									#68
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Then you don't understand China.

Not that you do.

	20-06-2005 06:50									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi I'll agree that some posters go to far. They do on both sides of the issue. But that's no reason to dismiss entire threads and points and label anyone who criticizes China as a "China-basher."

Some posters haven't shown that they are "equal opportunity bashers."

	20-06-2005 06:54									#70
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Why the constant attack on China despite there being much worse regimes elsewhere? For the same reason that 20 years ago there were constant attacks on the Soviet Union despite there being much worse regimes elsewhere. Fear. Fear that another power, with different values and interests will outcompete us. May supercede us. May defeat us. Yes, it's fear.

I think it's because the US needs a bogeyman.

The USSR had served well in that role. Then after it broke up, the PRC seemed a good substitute.

Lately, though, "terrorism" is the up and coming candidate. Or maybe it is "tyranny?"

	20-06-2005 07:08									#71
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There is the Anti-China crowd, and then there are the racists like Mindseye. He's constantly complaining that them Chinese just care about money and nothing else. For example, in another thread he wrote: "In mainland Chinese culture, personal profit takes primacy over public welfare. There really is no question on the matter."

Change Chinese to Jewish and he would sound like a typical anti-semitic.

	20-06-2005 07:11									#72
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And how is Hong Kong different from China itself? They had a democratic system that seems highly popular and they are Chinese (yes, the system set up by the UK, but the participants are Chinese). I don;t see Chinatown's around the world as dens of undemocratic corruption, anymore than any other ethnic neighborhoods- that's one reaosn why I perhaps don;t buy the "culture" arguement heavily.

Hong Kong doesn't have a completely democratic system, but your point is still valid.

The idea that Chinese culture is vastly diffferent from American culture is wrong. There are differences, of course, but there are differences between American and Canadian culture.

	20-06-2005 07:15									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai There is the Anti-China crowd, and then there are the racists like Mindseye. He's constantly complaining that them Chinese just care about money and nothing else. For example, in another thread he wrote: "In mainland Chinese culture, personal profit takes primacy over public welfare. There really is no question on the matter."

Unfortunately there are a nicely large number of Chinese who are like that.

Though I agree that such a trait shouldn't be generalised across the board.

	20-06-2005 07:16									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Not that you do.

More than most people here actually. More than some Chinese, maybe. You may not know (or admit) that students in China are taught what Chinese people are like. They have books that tell them exactly how Chinese people think (ie "Chinese are very inward looking people") as well as how people from other countries think and behave. This is standard curriculum. You have posted things here that have shown you lack some understanding of Chinese. Things often bordering on racism, I might add.

	20-06-2005 07:18									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Some posters haven't shown that they are "equal opportunity bashers."

Very few people criticize the left and the right. And it is ridiculous to accuse a poster of hating a country just because they post threads criticizing it. That's simply a strawman to avoid an issue some people want to discuss.

However, you seem to have misunderstood my meaning. I don't mean that a single person bashes on both sides. Rather that there are people who go a bit extreme to one side. Both sides have such posters.

	20-06-2005 07:25									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai There is the Anti-China crowd, and then there are the racists like Mindseye. He's constantly complaining that them Chinese just care about money and nothing else. For example, in another thread he wrote: "In mainland Chinese culture, personal profit takes primacy over public welfare. There really is no question on the matter." Change Chinese to Jewish and he would sound like a typical anti-semitic.

But that is an aspect of Chinese culture? It doesn't mean that all Chinese are money grubbing monsters as you would have people think. It means that in Chinese culture, personal gain often takes a higher priority than public gain. This is well known among the Chinese, and there are many who would like to see it changed. Playing the race card is just wrong.

	20-06-2005 07:28									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Hong Kong doesn't have a completely democratic system, but your point is still valid. The idea that Chinese culture is vastly diffferent from American culture is wrong. There are differences, of course, but there are differences between American and Canadian culture.

You know nothing about Chinese culture. Hong Kong culture is not true Chinese culture by far. It is heavily influenced by the west. Sadly, in mainland China this occurring as well. Western ideas and values are overtaking Chinese ones. Many aspects of Chinese culture are being lost or altered to fit into a more western formula, for better or worse. True Chinese culture is vastly different than American culture.

	20-06-2005 07:31									#78
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Chegitz is just trying to brownnose a certain moderator.

	20-06-2005 07:31									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I think it's because the US needs a bogeyman. The USSR had served well in that role. Then after it broke up, the PRC seemed a good substitute. Lately, though, "terrorism" is the up and coming candidate. Or maybe it is "tyranny?"

I agree to a point. However, using this line of argument to wash away all criticism of China is just as bad as the strawmans mentioned already in this thread.

The point is that China is a rising power. As it gains a greater presence in the world, more people will begin asking hard questions about it. The true test is how China and those who support its policies respond.

	20-06-2005 07:33									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's amazing how much of a hate on so many of you losers have for China. I have yet to see one thread started by you bozos on Burma, a country whih is committing genocide and slavery. Oh, teh evil Zimbabwe of teh evil China. But real evil just goes unmentioned by you. What about Sudan and Mali?

Not the people Che., just the government.

My Father-in-Law was born in Canton Prov.
My wife is 3/4 chinese. But was born here in Napa.
We have been married 40 years 7 mos. 11 days.

	20-06-2005 07:34									#81
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The question that should be asked is, why are there so many threads and posts discussing whether or not people should talk about China? Why is China so special that it shouldn't be criticized?

	20-06-2005 07:37									#82
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Where's the genocide in China?

Behine close doors so we can not see it. China could kill a hundred million people and we would not know it because there would still 1.2 billion left.

China is not killing the millions, but the Gov. is making sure that know one stands againt them.

	20-06-2005 07:42									#83
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's amazing how much of a hate on so many of you losers have for China. I have yet to see one thread started by you bozos on Burma, a country whih is committing genocide and slavery. Oh, teh evil Zimbabwe of teh evil China. But real evil just goes unmentioned by you. What about Sudan and Mali?

Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to count the number of threads Ive started about Darfur.

	20-06-2005 07:44									#84
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I think the thing is about these things is that they are complex.

Sure, China is an authoritarian state that has perpetrated some awful crimes. But compare the China of today and the China of the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, and one would see that things have improved.

Unfortunately, progress and improvement create their own problems, and China has seen a massive growth in crime, corruption and environmental problems.

I think the problem is that China has perhaps placed too much emphasis on capitalist modernization, and not enough counter-balancing emphasis on the dislocating effects of modernization.

That and modernization has not been followed with political reform. But trying to run such a large country has problems of its own.

I'm not sure as to what Chinese culture is like... if my girlfriend is a representative sample then I think Chinese people are quite good and moral people.... but I'm not naive enough to believe that they're any better than the rest of us sorry lot.

The Chinese Government has got to lose its fear of the people, and China as a whole has got to know that modernization is not the only part of improving a society. But I have hope that these things can improve...

	20-06-2005 07:48									#85
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Rationalize your hypocracy anyway you want, but you are still a hypocrite. Anyway, if there were actually true, thn why all the fuss over Zimbabwe?

Because the a$$hole that runs Zimbabwe ran all of the white farmers out of the country and gave the land to black. One small problem, no one ever showed the black how to farm. Now the country is starving to dead, and the $hit that runs the country is asking the white farmer to come back and feed his people.
Well the white farmers told him to go to heII and let them starve. And that is what is going to happen in next several months, unless the West start to ship food to Zimbabwe.

	20-06-2005 07:50									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph no one ever showed the black how to farm.

Now that's a classic.

	20-06-2005 07:58									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai There is the Anti-China crowd, and then there are the racists like Mindseye. He's constantly complaining that them Chinese just care about money and nothing else. For example, in another thread he wrote: "In mainland Chinese culture, personal profit takes primacy over public welfare. There really is no question on the matter." Change Chinese to Jewish and he would sound like a typical anti-semitic.

I've also heard that same sentiment expressed from someone whose mother is Chinese and who has lived in China. It's one of those cultural generalizations, like "The French are arrogant" and that "Americans are reckless cowboys". Generalizations about a national character sometimes happen.

	20-06-2005 08:07									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Now that's a classic.

Remember we are talking about their country and not the West.

On the internet about a week ago. there was this lady who became a farmer there and all of her crops were dying and she did not know what to do. There was picture of her holding her head in her hands.

	20-06-2005 08:10									#89
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Here are my 8 rules of life that I believe should be followed by all people before worrying about communism or capitalism...

1. Religion should not exist and should not be a part of society. This doesn't necessarily mean go around burning churches, rather, over time, people will pull away from religion and realize the world of technology and science.

2. All races are considered equal. Furthermore, any differences seen between races (assuming there are differences) are direct effects of past oppression and exploitation by other races.

3. Men and Woman are equal, and should be treated equal in society. Biological differences should not be a factor in society, rather only a factor to the individual.

4. Nature is NOT a resource, rather, we are a part of it. Nature may be used for our needs, but resources should be tightly controlled and used efficiently. While I don't believe a government should control resources, I hope people may eventually adopt this philosophy on their own.

5. Success is not how rich or powerful you are, but rather, how you have contributed to society. If you found the cure for cancer, you should feel proud that you contributed to society, even if anonymously, and shouldn't be finding a cure so you can make millions of dollars off of it. Even being a worker in a charity is considered successful, as you are helping others.

6. All lifestyles are acceptable. While I'm not saying that all lifestyles should be promoted as good or healthy, none should be critisized or looked down upon.

7. No one is bound to a single country, nation, or single power or individual. We are all people of the world, and our interests are for ourselves and for helping others. Nationalism, patriotism, and eventually, national conflict would become obsolete.

8. All traditions, cultures, and ways of life are not only acceptable, but should be nutured. While again, this does not necessarily imply promotion, it is necessary to aid individuals in living their lifestyles and acting out their tradtions. This may appear contradictory to rule 1 (obsolete religion), however its not; religion is a negative influence, however, tradition and culture that does not promote anti-research or capitalist philosophies benefit humanity and make us human...these traditions should be preserved.

I guess you could call me an anarchist or a libertarian socialist, depending on how you define things...

Forget about the evils of communism or capitalism, every nation, including China, I believe should gradually adopt these principles...

Of course, my philosophies are impractical, as most of the world is under the belief of the "individual" and of capitalism as the only means of true freedom...but, there is no point in not practicing myself...

	20-06-2005 08:14									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Chegitz is just trying to brownnose a certain moderator.

Bah! UR was my friend first. I don't need to brown nose to him.