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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
There is the Anti-China crowd, and then there are the racists like Mindseye. He's constantly complaining that them Chinese just care about money and nothing else. For example, in another thread he wrote: "In mainland Chinese culture, personal profit takes primacy over public welfare. There really is no question on the matter."
Change Chinese to Jewish and he would sound like a typical anti-semitic. |
Pre-modern Jews were not particularly public minded (for the most part) since they were a tiny minority excluded from citizenship. Money was tied to survival. I can well see where the same would be true for overseas Chinese in Southeast Asia, etc. Indeed there are many striking parallels. And, AFAICT, Chinese in the US (and i presume Canada, Oz, etc) have followed the paths of Jews in the US and other Western democracies, of becoming quite public spirited.
Now the question of Chinese IN China is something else - and would have to be related to the nature of Chinese state - 1900 years of more or less rigid Confucianism, rule by a scholar elite, followed by decades of disorder, Communist brutality, and then an authoritarian regime following a mix of socialism, capitalism, and xenophobic nationalism. I would be sympathetic to a citizenry that has failed to develop public spiritedness under those conditions - public spiritedness is largely the result of a politys nature, and its historical condition - Jews IN Israel, forex, are highly public spirited, but that is a result both of Israels democratic (previously Social Democratic) polity, and its historical situation, so different from China's.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Timexwatch
I've also heard that same sentiment expressed from someone whose mother is Chinese and who has lived in China. It's one of those cultural generalizations, like "The French are arrogant" and that "Americans are reckless cowboys". Generalizations about a national character sometimes happen. |
That's doesn't make it any less of a stereotype. It doesn't make it valid. It's a stereotype. It's prejudice. It's BS.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Pre-modern Jews were not particularly public minded (for the most part) since they were a tiny minority excluded from citizenship.
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There is ample evidence of Jewish people being public minded, but in the past, in some countries, they were prevented from doing things for the public as a whole and instead were confined to doing things within their own community. Just because they were not allowed to be charitable for the general populace doesn't mean they were selfish.
quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
I would be sympathetic to a citizenry that has failed to develop public spiritedness under those conditions - public spiritedness is largely the result of a politys nature, and its historical condition |
There are millions of Chinese who choose public service over chasing money: doctors, teachers, police, etc.
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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
There is the Anti-China crowd, and then there are the racists like Mindseye. He's constantly complaining that them Chinese just care about money and nothing else. For example, in another thread he wrote: "In mainland Chinese culture, personal profit takes primacy over public welfare. There really is no question on the matter." |
I guess Lu Xun must also be a racist, he wrote on the very same topic. I believe he called it a "cultural defect", one of Chinese culture's biggest problems. That racist, Lu Xun!
Racism occurs when you falsely associate negative attributes to an entire race. When I write here at 'Poly, I usually try to provide examples to back up my assertions. In fact, in the other "anti-China" thread I just gave you a whole bucket of examples to back up what I claimed.
It's not like this attribute of mainland culture is some sort of secret, ask any foreigner who lives here, "China-hater" or "China-lover". I doubt you will find many who disagree. In fact, good luck finding even one. Even local Chinese complain about this.
Yes, Chinese put personal profit over the welfare of strangers to a greater extent than other cultures. Does making this observation mean one is a racist? Is it not possible to make an evidence-backed observation based on years of intimate examination without being labeled a racist? Is an observation racist simply because it is negative?
Perhaps you are unable to discern the difference because your vision is obscured by the spasmodic jerking of your knee?
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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Your hatred is obvious and that blinds you. As a result, your perception is distorted into prejudice.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
You're denying that much of the land was given to people who don't know how to farm?
Maybe you think black people are born with an inate knowledge of agriculture? |
But he didn't say land was given to people who didn't know how to farm, now did he.
He said: no one ever showed the black how to farm.
Obviously, there have been black farmer since pre-history.
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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Tingkai
There are millions of Chinese who choose public service over chasing money: doctors, teachers, police, etc. |
Of course there are civic-minded people in mainland China. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and overseas communities show that attitudes can be changed. But as DaShi noted, you really chose some poor examples, again illustrating your ignorance of what you are clamoring about.
Doctors: In China, emergency room personnel often refuse any sort of assistance until they first see some cash. Before surgery, patients usually give the doctor a "hongbao" (red envelope filled with cash) to insure the doctor takes care in his work.
Police: You must be joking! As one of my Chinese friends put it, "In China the only difference between police and criminals is their employer." (guess that Chinese friend is a racist, eh Tingkai?) That doesn't mean that all police are thugs, I've met some that seemed really nice. However, I've personally witnessed Chinese police and bribery close-up. Involvement with bribery and protection money (and in some cases, far less savory stuff) is pretty much the nationwide norm as I understand it.
Teachers: I often ask students about their career aspirations. Those who choose teaching are of particular interest to me. Unfortunately, I am dismayed by the number one stated reason for wanting to become a teacher: you get a long vacation. 
-----
You want a story about Chinese cops and teachers? Last week in Shalan, Heilongjiang province there was a terrible, tragic story of a grade school, stupidly, negligently built square in the path of a known flood plain. When a flashflood struck, 90 - 280 children (reports vary) drowned.
The neighboring town up-river called to warn about the flood headed their way, but the local city official they reached said he was "too busy" to do anything about it. Students later claimed the school filled with 2 meters of water in about ten minutes.
As the school filled with water (it was in a bowl-shaped valley), police were slow to respond. According to parents, they didn't respond until after parents arrived on the scene.
quote:
"The teacher, the principal, everybody has a cellphone. They could have easily warned the children," said a 36-year-old woman who gave only her surname, Zeng. (...) "Why didn't they do anything?" she asked. "Are these people human?"
By the time help arrived, most of the parents had fished their children out of the blackened water. Angry villagers said local officials had not only failed to lend a hand, they had stood in the way. As parents raced to the school on motorbikes, police officers stopped some to issue fines for permit violations. "If they didn't block the motorbikes, more parents could have gotten to the school on time to help the teachers save the children," Zeng said.
When the police chief came, he just stood there and watched, said Zeng's father-in-law, who gave only his surname, Zhang. "He wore a life jacket," Zhang said. "One parent asked if he could borrow it. He said no. The parent jumped into the water without it." |
quote:
What really shocked parents was that while some teachers risked their lives to help their students, others climbed to higher ground and abandoned the young. "There is only one little girl left in the first grade," said Sun Xiuqin, the mother of the 10-year-old boy who survived. "When we got there, we saw their teachers standing on the roof. Those were 7- and 8-year-olds. How could they have fended for themselves?" |
The school was supposed to have a second story (which would have saved everyone), but locals said that the city officials pocketed the money intended for construction of the second floor.
When word of the disaster started to get out, local officials called in the military to seal off the area. Some reports or aspects of the story were suppressed. Local police intimidated some reporters.
Parents were given an offer of compensation (many were indignant over the amount), but they had to sign a waiver stating they would not hold authorities responsible for their children's deaths. The parents, mostly poor farmers, had little choice.
Newspapers ran horrifying photos of the muddy handprints the little children left on the walls as they slipped beneath the swirling brown waters. Even a "racist" like me cried when I read this awful story.
A teacher from another town who arived to help was quoted:quote:
I am from Ning'an. Shalan Town is commonly called Shalan Ditch. It is a ditch surrounded by mountain slopes. The water storage area is in a high place 20 kilometers away. On the afternoon of June 10, the heavy rains caused the dam of the water storage area to break. These water storage areas were constructed in 1960 and have not been maintained, but the Ning'an Water Works department decided to buy six Shanghai Passat sedans instead. This was why the tragedy occurred. This afternoon, a deputy mayor was attacked with a iron shovel by an angry citizen who overheard the deputy mayor say that things are alright over the mobile phone. It is impossible to describe what it means to lose your children. Shalan Town has been locked down by armed policemen. This was not a natural disaster but the errors of various officials. The young lives and innocent villagers were killed by corrupt officials. The number of dead is about 300 with 200 missing. At the time, there were more than 600 students in school, and most of the dead were in Grade 1 to 4. There were not too many deaths among the Grade 5 students. I don't understand how the media could report this way. Oh, it breaks my heart! So many lost lives! |
From a Chinese reporter (whose story was suppressed):quote:
Summarizing the above and comparing against the official positions, I believe that the core facts before the Shalan Town disaster were the negligence and indifference of the local lower-level officials and the core facts afterwards were the lies and cover-ups by the officials collectively.
(...)
The villagers told the Disaster Investigation Group about the corruption among the town officials, especially about the public money for school construction being stolen.
(...)
An uncle of a dead child wanted us to help him plan on how to get more money from the government
(...)
I am not demeaning anyone. I am just recording . Such are our country, our family relationships and the realities of what we live under. |
My point is this: in how many countries does stuff like this happen regularly? By Tingkai's standards, I suppose even asking that question makes one a "racist."
Here are two excellent blogs with a lot of information about the story, including press reports and photos:
Paper Tiger
EastSouthWestNorth
 Attachment: handprints.jpg
This has been downloaded 50 time(s).
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mindseye
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A Yankee living in Shanghai
Apr 1999
time: 13:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
I can't help but getting the impression you much prefer to attack opponents integrity to addressing their claims, which rather suggests you can't address their claims. Care to prove that impression wrong? |
Thank you for precisely nailing the problem: I provide example after example (from news stories, as well as personal observation). But Tingkai won't address those, he prefers to simply shout "racist".
News that I'm a racist may come as a surprise to the many Chinese I am honored to call my friends, co-workers, neighbors, students, clients, and dates, or to those who know what I gave up to come and voluntarily live here for 4-1/2 years and counting.
If anyone doubts my assertions, anecdotes or my examples, go spend a few hours reading China blogs. Better yet, ask someone else who actually lives here. That might be more time consuming than simply accusing someone of being a hateful racist, but at least you'll know what you are talking about.
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Apolyton Time is 00:34. |
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20-06-2005 08:18
You're killing your case. These are some of the most corrupt offices in China. Its common that doctors refuse to treat patients until they've paid. I can't tell you how many teachers here that I've heard loathe their students. For them it a job they felt they were tricked into. And the police. There are rumors of there being good cops, but they were simply bribe by the just side. None of these are considered public service in China, but instead jobs that can be abused to gain more wealth. Although there are some good people in these professions, but to call them charitable in China is a farce.
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