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Arthedain
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Dúnedain of the north
Apr 2002
time: 06:37
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Playtest #3
***
WARNING: THIS REPORT MAY INCLUDE SOME SPOILERS FOR BEGINNERS OF THE SCENARIO.
***
Wow, lucky me. Captured Blue and it kept the fishing harbor AND the fortifications. I placed Oberon and the Copper Dragon south west of the city, trying to block the Demons way. Oberon survived with ease, but the Copper Dragon was killed. Still that was a cheap Price to pay Imho.
I then built a fortress on 108,54. It became my impregnable fortress. 
I then played chicken, capturing Twin fangs, and occupied Ruins at 109,51 and 104,58 keeping Bandits at bay, not spawning so close to me. I also built fortresses there, which was very handy especially on 109,51 where pirates sometimes attackes.
I continue the chikcen tactic, and managed with many casalties to establish a new fortresson 102,52. This gave me the advantage of using the tower (airbase). I then played chicken for a while, then I used oberon and my two Pioneers to build fortresses at 102,50 -> 100,50 -> and at last 98,50, laying siege on Vile Rune. With more casualties, I managed to capture the city.
And here we are, week 56. I have lost my both Pioneer units now, so no more chicken tactics. All other heros are still here though (except for both dragons, got a new white dragon through reinforcements though.
Switching to Pomarj Baronny first was very good, now I get techs every three turns. I've got reinforcement via sea (transporting them with ease, though at slow pace, to Blue) and by armies (in blue and transporting them from North West without meeting resistance). Deep Roots is still independent, I want to try and use them as my allies later on. My main problem now will probably be Bandits, going around Vile rune. The rest of the humanoids armies will most likely attack the city. I have no idea how to advance without great casualties. Maybe using the rivers (hills gives defensive bonus too). I will have to heal my armies and get more rinforcements before advancing anyways, and maybe scouting some with Oberon. i have been lucky with this and only met one red dragon, which I managed to kill.
Getting the reinforcement to the north west is very time consuming and frankly a tough job (me and my impatience). Bringing in the ships from the south west isn't that hard for my lazy butt. 
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rjmatsleepers
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One small point about the graphics. I find it difficult to see the size of the city and as a result I unitentionally destroyed one rather than capturing it. Probably there is a way to tell how big the city is, but I can't remember it  .
Also, in my experiments, if you capture Blue on the second turn you don't seem to get the 800 gold - is that deliberate?
I tried capturing Twin Fang before Blue, but this doesn't stop the demons and the loss of gold makes it a poor strategy. I haven't found the trick for pacifying the demons. (I suspect I must have found it accidentally once to give me the week 1 save that I use for experiments.) Preventing the counter attack by demons seems to be fairly crucial. If this puzzle is intended to be a feature of the opening, it would be an idea to highlight the problem in the introduction. If not, perhaps you should put the solution in the read me. If the demon problem is resolved, I don't think you need increase the defensive values of the heros.
As far as messages are concerned, I'm slightly torn. They are very good for giving atmosphere to the scenario and initially to help the game player understand and enjoy what is happening, but once you have played through a few times, they become tedious. Perhaps it will help when the pedia entries are written; then if it is turned on, the discovery of the new tech will tell the player which units will arrive where (and why and for how long!)
In my current game I have reached week 50 and built 2 cities to form an outer shield protecting Blue. My heroes are intact, but I've lost my dragons. As far as I can see, the only way forward now is by capturing green cities. I haven't tried to discover trade yet or the "un-petrification" of the Twisted forest.
RJM at Sleeper's
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
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@Arthedain
It seems you have understood a few things about how the scen works (fortress, spawning...)! 
Sometimes it is necessary to "play chicken", but advancing is still possible (and necessary  ).
quote:
Originally posted by Arthedain
Switching to Pomarj Baronny first was very good, now I get techs every three turns.
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Yes, as in any "vanilla" game of civ, a rush towards monarchy (Baronny) is a must!
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Deep Roots is still independent, I want to try and use them as my allies later on.
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A tactic I used and which seems to work, at least as a buffer for a while! 
But if you want them not only neutral, but figthing at your side, then you'd better make some research so that the Kobolds get their bowmen, otherwise they are definitely too weak!
Question: should I raise the stats of both Kobold units? 
And when you don't need them anymore...
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My main problem now will probably be Bandits, going around Vile rune. The rest of the humanoids armies will most likely attack the city. I have no idea how to advance without great casualties. Maybe using the rivers (hills gives defensive bonus too). I will have to heal my armies and get more rinforcements before advancing anyways, and maybe scouting some with Oberon. i have been lucky with this and only met one red dragon, which I managed to kill.
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Yes, I try to advance quickly, along rivers and hills until I have secured a perimeter!
And using my (rare) flying units to cover the infantry! Of course, if a red dragon appears... you'd better have Oberon at 100% on a rivered hill as a cover!
BTW: the Red Dragon is REALLY tough, but not too common...
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Oh yeah, forgot to mention.. The Adventurers are still very sucky and useless.
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Yeah, they are not really useful as they are, except for some recce or square occupation...
If anybody has suggestion about what to do with them??
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
One small point about the graphics. I find it difficult to see the size of the city and as a result I unitentionally destroyed one rather than capturing it. Probably there is a way to tell how big the city is, but I can't remember it .
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True!  Will be changed!
quote:
Also, in my experiments, if you capture Blue on the second turn you don't seem to get the 800 gold - is that deliberate?
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No, but not taking Blue at once might have some advantages... See N35t0r post below yours...
quote:
I tried capturing Twin Fang before Blue, but this doesn't stop the demons and the loss of gold makes it a poor strategy. I haven't found the trick for pacifying the demons. (I suspect I must have found it accidentally once to give me the week 1 save that I use for experiments.) Preventing the counter attack by demons seems to be fairly crucial. If this puzzle is intended to be a feature of the opening, it would be an idea to highlight the problem in the introduction. If not, perhaps you should put the solution in the read me. If the demon problem is resolved, I don't think you need increase the defensive values of the heros.
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Yes, I think preventing the Demon counter-attack should be enough!
And yes, I might put the solution in the middle of the readme, to reward those who read it! 
*************** SPOILER ****************
Actually, n35t0r and you are looking in the right direction! Try some quasi-simultaneity, and in the right order...
************ END OF SPOILER *************
quote:
As far as messages are concerned, I'm slightly torn. They are very good for giving atmosphere to the scenario and initially to help the game player understand and enjoy what is happening, but once you have played through a few times, they become tedious. Perhaps it will help when the pedia entries are written; then if it is turned on, the discovery of the new tech will tell the player which units will arrive where (and why and for how long!)
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Yes, using the techs and unit description to tell the player what would happen is the solution I had chosen as there is no spare room in the event file...
I'll have to write the descriptions though, which might take some time...
quote:
In my current game I have reached week 50 and built 2 cities to form an outer shield protecting Blue. My heroes are intact, but I've lost my dragons. As far as I can see, the only way forward now is by capturing green cities. I haven't tried to discover trade yet or the "un-petrification" of the Twisted forest.
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Advance before you unpetrify, otherwise you won't be able to save the new units you'll get!
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
This has brought me in contact with the impassable area. I thought it was ordinary forest and tried to enter it which cost me a move. I thought that was a bit mean - no way round it I presume.
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Do you mean the Twisted Forest unit? If yes, then I think it looks different enough from the terrain for you to be a bit more cautious en to check what it is before you try to move onto it... 
You might also come upon true invisible Impassable unit; as you are allied to them, you shouldn't lose any unit on that occasion!
And yes, I really need them to restrict some foreign units (for a while...)
quote:
Also I wandered into the lair north west of Evil Rune and lost a unit. I thought it was just ruins. Perhaps you could highlight it by making the colur more distinctive.
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If you think it's necessary I can put a shield on it, but I'm not sure it would look really good...
Your thought??
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At one point the computer shouted "Arepo" at me. (A bit like the final move in a game of Mornington Crescent.)
After this a lot of new units appeared in the castle ruins at the top of the map. I presume in the final version the message will be a bit more informative .
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Yes, I'll need to update that, sorry!
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And do those reinforcements have to be so far away? It's very tedious sending ships up to collect them. Alternatively, is there a problem with joining their spawning ground to the rest of the peninsular so they can make their own way south?
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Actually they represent refugees having cross the whole continent before arriving to the Wild Coast, north of Elredd!
The idea was to have to ferry them across (which by the way ain't no big thing if you're trading with Elredd...), and so putting some interest in the maritime part and the pirates.
Of course, I could easily change their spawning point to Blue if you all agree on that...
My initial idea was that most units spawn in Blue, and some of the later ones near Elredd to complicate things a bit...
And I don't want to join their peninsula to the ground and for them to walk the all way through humanoids infested terrain: they would have no chance of surviving this treck...
quote:
Also, one of the AI civs contacted me and complained about my nuclear tests. I doubt that the scenario actually has nuclear weapons, so there is another thing to add to your "to do" list.
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added!
Do you remember which tech you had just discovered?
Or can someone tell me which discovery triggers the "nuclear test message"??
If I can, I'll replace that tech, if I can't I'll change the message...
quote:
I believe that the spelling will be checked, but just to point out, the resource should be sheep.
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Yes, it will! What did I write??
Thanks for your feedback
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rjmatsleepers
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrion
Do you mean the Twisted Forest unit? If yes, then I think it looks different enough from the terrain for you to be a bit more cautious en to check what it is before you try to move onto it...
You might also come upon true invisible Impassable unit; as you are allied to them, you shouldn't lose any unit on that occasion!
And yes, I really need them to restrict some foreign units (for a while...) |
I can't remember the name of the unit. It is north west of Vile Rune and a couple of tiles from the coast.
quote:
If you think it's necessary I can put a shield on it, but I'm not sure it would look really good...
Your thought??
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Doesn't have to be a shield - just something to warn you. Although to some extent it depends on the etiqutte of scenario play. If it's considered OK to reload the auto save to deal with situations like that, then there's no need to change it. I use reloads a lot when I'm play testing, but in regular games of Civ it is not usually permitted.
quote:
Actually they represent refugees having cross the whole continent before arriving to the Wild Coast, north of Elredd!
The idea was to have to ferry them across (which by the way ain't no big thing if you're trading with Elredd...), and so putting some interest in the maritime part and the pirates.
Of course, I could easily change their spawning point to Blue if you all agree on that...
My initial idea was that most units spawn in Blue, and some of the later ones near Elredd to complicate things a bit...
And I don't want to join their peninsula to the ground and for them to walk the all way through humanoids infested terrain: they would have no chance of surviving this treck...
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I'm afraid in my game I started trading very late because my initial 800 gold from capturing Blue lasted reasonably well. If you don't get the 800, then you are likely to need to trade earlier so it may not be a big deal. What do others think?
quote:
Do you remember which tech you had just discovered?
Or can someone tell me which discovery triggers the "nuclear test message"??
If I can, I'll replace that tech, if I can't I'll change the message...
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The message appeared when they discovered a new tech - can't remember which one though. I assumed that the nuclear tests message was triggered by the manahattan wow, but perhaps it's the nuclear fission tech.
quote:
Yes, it will! What did I write??
Thanks for your feedback |
sheeps I believe
RJM at Sleeper's
PS I suspect that pre irrigating Blue's food special won't help enough - won't it be limited to 2 food until Baronny?
Last edited by rjmatsleepers on 05-08-2005 at 10:46
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rjmatsleepers
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The previous discussion lead me to believe that capturing Twin Fang before Blue would eliminate the demon threat, but that is not the case. In the attached save, I have captured Twin Fang and Blue has no defenders. If you capture it, the demons will appear - or at least they did for me. Have I misunderstood. Is there some other part of the trick? (Or is there a bug in your events file?)
Anyway, if delaying the capture of Blue costs 800 and doesn't eliminate demons, it seems to be a no brainer to capture it on the first turn.
RJM at Sleeper's
 Attachment: capture.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).
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duke o' york
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1. Bloody hell, but this is hard!!!! 
2. If you lose all but one of your heroes on the first turn (as I did), then just start again, don't try to persevere (as I did).
3. Apart from the things above, I noticed that you haven't changed the message for the dragons/bombers running out of fuel. Now I'd be tempted to have "Your wizards have lost control of the summoned dragon", or something like that, except that the wizard hero is also an aircraft, which makes it a bit more troublesome.
4. I founded New Hope on the island where most of your bog standard troops begin, and it was never threatened all game. I'm not sure how you can alter this, but while I just held onto Blue for about 30 or 40 turns without enough troops to launch any kind of attack (even with reinforcements) and researched frantically trying to get a merchant ship reinforcement to move some of the troops across, the other city was ignored, and nothing happened. Even when I lost Blue, it stayed unattacked for the rest of however long I could be bothered to press Enter for.
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
The previous discussion lead me to believe that capturing Twin Fang before Blue would eliminate the demon threat, but that is not the case. In the attached save, I have captured Twin Fang and Blue has no defenders. If you capture it, the demons will appear - or at least they did for me. Have I misunderstood. Is there some other part of the trick? (Or is there a bug in your events file?)
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No bug, but as I wrote a few posts above:
quote:
*************** SPOILER ****************
Actually, n35t0r and you are looking in the right direction! Try some quasi-simultaneity, and in the right order...
************ END OF SPOILER *************
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There are two parts in my hint, apply both and you'll be safe!
quote:
Anyway, if delaying the capture of Blue costs 800 and doesn't eliminate demons, it seems to be a no brainer to capture it on the first turn.
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As you wrote, IF...
Last edited by Cyrion on 05-08-2005 at 20:11
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by duke o' york
1. Bloody hell, but this is hard!!!!
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Is it, now??
quote:
2. If you lose all but one of your heroes on the first turn (as I did), then just start again, don't try to persevere (as I did).
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True! but the heroes will get some "resurrection" (which would be needed later on, so I wouldn't go on
playing if more than 1 hero falls while attacking Blue...) in my soon-to-come update...
quote:
3. Apart from the things above, I noticed that you haven't changed the message for the dragons/bombers running out of fuel. Now I'd be tempted to have "Your wizards have lost control of the summoned dragon", or something like that, except that the wizard hero is also an aircraft, which makes it a bit more troublesome.
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Yes, actually nearly ALL the messages still need to be changed... I'll try to find something fitting...
quote:
4. I founded New Hope on the island where most of your bog standard troops begin, and it was never threatened all game. I'm not sure how you can alter this, but while I just held onto Blue for about 30 or 40 turns without enough troops to launch any kind of attack (even with reinforcements) and researched frantically trying to get a merchant ship reinforcement to move some of the troops across, the other city was ignored, and nothing happened. Even when I lost Blue, it stayed unattacked for the rest of however long I could be bothered to press Enter for. |
Yes, a city founded would be at the same time:
1) really safe!
2) quite unproductive...
I can't see any way around point 1 (except that point 2 should not encourage you to build it...), except maybe a house rule?? : confused:
Any idea about that??
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N35t0r
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( o Y o )
Jan 2000
time: 02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
The previous discussion lead me to believe that capturing Twin Fang before Blue would eliminate the demon threat, but that is not the case. In the attached save, I have captured Twin Fang and Blue has no defenders. If you capture it, the demons will appear - or at least they did for me. Have I misunderstood. Is there some other part of the trick? (Or is there a bug in your events file?)
Anyway, if delaying the capture of Blue costs 800 and doesn't eliminate demons, it seems to be a no brainer to capture it on the first turn.
RJM at Sleeper's |
Ehm, I actually reported my last find a bit unprecisely... I won't point out my mistake as it will make the answer dead obvious. A hint, though: keep your eyes open, and try other combinations.
I actually tried to capture blue and get rid of the demons all on the first turn, but I was short of manpower... by one unit. With one more troop capable of killing defenders, I'd have been able to do so (or alternatively, with the Warship killing two units without losing health thus allowing it to attack three times). I even tried the ranger, only one who can disembark and attack of the initial boatload, but they are useless fighting.
****EARLY SPOILERS****
Anyway, on my current game, I've managed to keep everyone alive (with oberon almost dying to the damn Red Dragon) and have already captured and held Vile Rune for a couple of turns now. The fact that they all (bah, 3 cities so far) lose the walls is not a great help, though...
I've almost finished a Blue - Vile Rune road, which is a great help getting slow-movers (such as Wilfried) to the front...
The bandits are proving to be a real PITA, but not only do I think I've identified their, let's say, pattern of appearance, I've also found a useful thing to do with those useless (and very expensive) militia.
I'm wondering wether to take a detour to take Broken Bone... it's a long way away and I'm usure as to the fate of Vile Rune without all of the heores.
My rangers have spotted Suloise warriors behind an invisible barrier, as well as a petrified forest and a stone dam. they turned around a couple of tiles later, as some demons were seen. (the mountains are a very good territory for exploring, as the raners can retreat to safely with relative ease.)
I'm a barony already, and am working myself to the discovery of trading units, so that I may put my ships to some use...
well, I'm off to more playing.
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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:37
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N35t0r , you seem to be understanding this scenario as well as I do now!
And using the same tactics too!
quote:
Originally posted by N35t0r
I actually tried to capture blue and get rid of the demons all on the first turn, but I was short of manpower... by one unit.
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Would you believe me if I told you I adjusted the number of defending units to get precisely this result??
quote:
****EARLY SPOILERS****
...
The bandits are proving to be a real PITA, but not only do I think I've identified their, let's say, pattern of appearance, I've also found a useful thing to do with those useless (and very expensive) militia.
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And Adventurers!
Note that once your Rangers are all dead, you could still imagine doing some exploring with them...
quote:
My rangers have spotted Suloise warriors behind an invisible barrier, as well as a petrified forest and a stone dam. they turned around a couple of tiles later, as some demons were seen. (the mountains are a very good territory for exploring, as the raners can retreat to safely with relative ease.)
...
I'm a barony already, and am working myself to the discovery of trading units, so that I may put my ships to some use...
well, I'm off to more playing. |
Excellent!
I'll try whipping up an update addressing all the comments so far between tonight and tomorrow morning!
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03-08-2005 04:28
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