21-06-2005 21:05									#61
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark yeah, cause putting idiotic stickers on biology texts, and denying gays a right that they probably ought to have, but have done without for the first 224 years of American history, will surely destroy the Republic. Yeah, right.

So then blacks were doing just fine without equal rights before the Civil Rights movement, just because they did not have those rights for such a long time anyway?


Chrisitian fundamentalists want to tear down the separation between church and state. That most certainly is destructive of a democratic republic. I'm thankful that they have not gained complete power of our government yet.

	21-06-2005 21:27									#62
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by MrFun


[qSo then blacks were doing just fine without equal rights before the Civil Rights movement, just because they did not have those rights for such a long time anyway?[/q]

No it wasnt fine. But the resistance to civil rights did NOT represent a threat to the Republic. Or herald a new "dark age". It was a backlash to progress. Progress ALWAYS creates backlashes. Its necessary to seperate such backlashes from real threats to the Republic in order to respond appropriately, I believe.

quote: Christian fundamentalists want to tear down the separation between church and state. That most certainly is destructive of a democratic republic. I'm thankful that they have not gained complete power of our government yet.

The non-establishment of religion was not always interpreted as a strict wall of seperation. My mom told me how in her childhood they not only said prayers in school but actually said the Lords Prayer (she was living outside of NYC at the time) She told me this made her feel uncomfortable as a Jew. IF say, school prayer were restored, and IF a NT prayer was instituted here in Virginia, it would certainly make POTM uncomfortable. I would certainly object.

But it would NOT mean the end of the Republic. It would mean a return to the status quo of a time when the Republic was a less good place than it is now. Thats all. Thats what politics is about - different people advocate different policies - some people think a given policy makes things worse, some better. So we argue, we form alliances, we try to win.

NOT the same as threats to democracy.

	21-06-2005 21:42									#63
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If prayer was issued in school, America could go into chaos...and I'm serious about this...you can argue about whether Americans are free or not, but you can't argue the fact that most of them think they are free...

Considering that people actually believe there is a separation between church and state (which there isn't, unfortunately), it would be extremely difficult, extremely dangerous, and extremely foolish to put school prayer in public schools...even choosing what the school prayer should be would prove difficult when you account for the amount of Jews, Muslims, Catholics, and yes, even voodoo people...and a good number of each too...

The fact is, if George Bush truly had intentions to protect this country, America, imposing school prayer would be absolutely the worst thing he could do...

For the Muslim terrorists, it would be the equivalent of placing embargos on all of the mid-east...ALL of the mid-east...

These terrorists claim that America is evil and is some retarded Christian fundy society...with Bush as president, I almost believed them...if school prayer is imposed, then are these seemly outrageous claims by terrorists would actually be accurate, and people would then have to choose between the lesser of two evils...

If only religion was obsolete, this world would be a better place...

	21-06-2005 21:50									#64
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark [QUOTE] Originally posted by MrFun [qSo then blacks were doing just fine without equal rights before the Civil Rights movement, just because they did not have those rights for such a long time anyway?[/q] No it wasnt fine. But the resistance to civil rights did NOT represent a threat to the Republic. Or herald a new "dark age". It was a backlash to progress. Progress ALWAYS creates backlashes. Its necessary to seperate such backlashes from real threats to the Republic in order to respond appropriately, I believe. quote: Christian fundamentalists want to tear down the separation between church and state. That most certainly is destructive of a democratic republic. I'm thankful that they have not gained complete power of our government yet. The non-establishment of religion was not always interpreted as a strict wall of seperation. My mom told me how in her childhood they not only said prayers in school but actually said the Lords Prayer (she was living outside of NYC at the time) She told me this made her feel uncomfortable as a Jew. IF say, school prayer were restored, and IF a NT prayer was instituted here in Virginia, it would certainly make POTM uncomfortable. I would certainly object. But it would NOT mean the end of the Republic. It would mean a return to the status quo of a time when the Republic was a less good place than it is now. Thats all. Thats what politics is about - different people advocate different policies - some people think a given policy makes things worse, some better. So we argue, we form alliances, we try to win. NOT the same as threats to democracy.

There are two underlying principles for a democratic republic: equal rights and liberty for citizens, and separation of church and state.

So how can you claim that violations of equal rights and/or liberty, and violation of separation of church and state do not undermine the democratic republic?

Abraham Lincoln himself understood that slavery was antithetical to the idea of a democratic republic. And we have real examples in the Middle East how religious fundamentalism, when capable of forcing its religious morals onto its people, is destructive of any possibility for a democratic republic.

	21-06-2005 21:55									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon There'll be jack you can do about it if they do anyway, so that's wasted effort.

The Saudis are a much easier nut to crack than Iraq.

	21-06-2005 21:56									#66
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I thought it would be much harder, since United States is a vassal of Saudi Arabia.

	21-06-2005 21:57									#67
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It's a pretty foolish claim that people like Ben Kenobi are some how going to destroy western civilization or suddenly go around blowing up school buses full of children like Arab terrorists do.

As much as I dispise the man I don't see Pat Roberts followers hijacking planes and flying them into buildings. Sure, Pat and his elk are scum but they are nothing like nor as violent as your average Islamic fundie.

	21-06-2005 21:58									#68
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Ben, tho, is a good argument for destroying Western civilization.

	21-06-2005 21:59									#69
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They spend more on their military than Israel. I doubt they're anywhere near as good, though. But weaker than Iraq?

	21-06-2005 21:59									#70
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Christian fundamenatlists use different means than Islamic fanatics, Oerdin. But that doesn't change the fact that Christian fundamentalists are antithetical to the principles of a democratic republic.

I'm not sure where you thought I claimed that Christian fundamentalists use the same terrorist tactics that Islamic fanatics use.

(of course, there are a tiny, tiny number of those who murder abortion doctors and blow up clinics)

	21-06-2005 22:00									#71
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I thought it would be much harder, since United States is a vassal of Saudi Arabia.

Only because it's convenient to our interests in the global market. Unfortunately for the Saudis, the majority of their population and their military power can be separated quite nicely from their oil fields and port facilities. Cut the economic heart out of them, and leave them riding their camels around between Mecca and Medina. All we'd really need to deal with heavily are KKMC and Dhahran.

	21-06-2005 22:08									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman They spend more on their military than Israel. I doubt they're anywhere near as good, though. But weaker than Iraq?

I'd go with much weaker then Iraq. The stories Gulf war 1 vets told me about Sadui incompetance do color my views though. We're talking about a country that buys hundreds of billions of dollars worth of state of the art fighters yet almost none of them fly because no one knowns how to fix them. What's more every Saudi citizen wants to be the pilot and no one wants to be the mechanic dispite the fact that, at least by objective western standards, few of them even have a hope of ever being qualified to opporate it.

Even the Saudis themselves say to never hire a Saudi because they're so used to free handouts that the lazy bastards just want to get paid to drink coffee and read the paper. Doing actual work at work doesn't often get done thus dispite the fact that the real unemployment rate is around 40%-50% they still have to get foreign experts to run just about everything in the country. It's telling that in a country where education is free almost no one studies engineering, math, business, science or other economically useful subjects yet nearly half the population gets degrees in theology in order to become Imams. Surely, they can't all be preachers and someone must be the guy who's getting preached to.

	21-06-2005 22:14									#73
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun There are two underlying principles for a democratic republic: equal rights and liberty for citizens, and separation of church and state.

there are a number of european countries that do not have a wall of seperation between church and state, yet are democracies. Most are republics, some are constitutional monarchies. (I would note that in many of those not very many people are religious - im not saying establishment of religion is effective)

Democracy requires tolerance of the practice of different religions (and non-religion) and it requires all have rights as citizens regardless of religion. It does NOT require that there be no establishment of religion, much less that there be a wall of seperation.

	21-06-2005 22:16									#74
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But Christian fundamnetalists ARE intolerant of other religions!

	21-06-2005 22:40									#75
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun But Christian fundamnetalists ARE intolerant of other religions!

but theyre not trying to make the state intolerant of other religions.

	21-06-2005 22:53									#76
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That makes no sense whatsoever.




If religious fundamentalists are intolerant of other religions, then they will use whatever means within their power to suppress other religions.

The only reason they have not used the state government as their means, towards this end, is because, as of yet, they do not have predominant power in our government.

	21-06-2005 23:01									#77
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun That makes no sense whatsoever. If religious fundamentalists are intolerant of other religions, then they will use whatever means within their power to suppress other religions. The only reason they have not used the state government as their means, towards this end, is because, as of yet, they do not have predominant power in our government.

No. There is a difference between going around saying anyone who doesnt embrace my religion is going to hell, and saying anyone who doesnt embrace my religion should not have equal rights under the law. There is a strong tradition in the Baptist and other American churches of hostility to the idea of a state church - and I see no evidence whatsoever of a change in that outlook among fundies. I DO SEE a strong desire to inject God-talk and symbols into the public square - from school prayer, to christmas creches on municipal property, to the ten commandments at courthouses. I dont think any of that is a particularly good idea, and I do think the fundies dont realize how much god expressions that look neutral to them are in fact not, but again - its would represente largely a return to the status quo ante 1962, and would NOT be a threat to democracy, much less the Republic.

	21-06-2005 23:01									#78
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It does make sense. LotM is saying that the people personally don't like other religions but that they are not trying to use the powers of the state to attack other religions. Follow?

	21-06-2005 23:07									#79
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Old habits die hard. We said the Lord's Prayer in public school in rural Ohio in some teachers' classes. Over time, I expect this to do die out, if it hasn't already. The information that this is happening gets around really fast in today's day and age.

	21-06-2005 23:36									#80
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There was absolutely no praying in my public schools in California. So Saudi kid moved to the neighborhood and wanted to pray all the time and the school told him he'd couldn't do it on school grounds and that he would not be excused from class to do so. I fully support that call.

Eventually the rules got changed to people could pray during the 10 minute passing time between classes on any of the grass lawns but if they were late for class they'd be repremanded. Do it enough and you'd get expelled. I'm against using any publicly owned property for religious purposes so I'd like to see a return to the original policy.

	21-06-2005 23:54									#81
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I take a much more relaxed attitude about it. As long as it doesn't put others out, reasonable accomodations can be made for whatever the student believes.

Also, as long as the publicly-owned property is free at the time, I don't have any problem with it being used for religious purposes. Obviously, if it's a church or whatever, they should pay for the use. Our church held mass in the public school down the street while a new church was being built, for instance. I have no problem with that. If it's a religious student group or whatever, then they shouldn't be forced to pay.

	21-06-2005 23:54									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There was absolutely no praying in my public schools in California. So Saudi kid moved to the neighborhood and wanted to pray all the time and the school told him he'd couldn't do it on school grounds and that he would not be excused from class to do so. I fully support that call. Eventually the rules got changed to people could pray during the 10 minute passing time between classes on any of the grass lawns but if they were late for class they'd be repremanded. Do it enough and you'd get expelled. I'm against using any publicly owned property for religious purposes so I'd like to see a return to the original policy.

You do realize that would mean an observant Jewish couldnt eat lunch at public school?

Like a wise man said, there'll be prayers in public schools as long there are exams in public schools

SCOTUS wisely only banned school sponsored prayers. The attempt by local school admins to go way beyond SCOTUS, has caused some of the backlash on this issue.

	22-06-2005 00:03									#83
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France got this issue right. Schools should be a religion free zone. Students and parents have the other 3/4 of the day, the weekends, and the holidays to practice their religion.

	22-06-2005 00:12									#84
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Reference all the other threads we've had on headscarves. Suffice it to say, for purposes of this thread, I merely will say that I disagree.

	22-06-2005 00:17									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin France got this issue right. Schools should be a religion free zone. Students and parents have the other 3/4 of the day, the weekends, and the holidays to practice their religion.

Ok. Fine. Then dont allow ANY kids to eat lunch at school. After all, they have the other 3/4 of the day, the weekends, and the holidays to eat.

	22-06-2005 00:23									#86
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That's not really the same.

	22-06-2005 00:33									#87
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at my school we have choices on what we want to buy so I don't see why an observant jew would have a problem since he can choose what to buy. It's like a cafe as opposite to standard school cafeteria where you're stuck with the menu of the day.

	22-06-2005 00:34									#88
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro That's not really the same.

Youre right. Someone quietly praying doesnt disturb anyone. eating, OTOH, can be quite disgusting. Crumbs, mess, all kinds of bad stuff. Smells. Heck you know some kids bring peanut butter to school, and someones who's alergic can become seriously ill.

You want to eat, eat at home. Or in your church, of course.

By the way, if school is a religion free zone, should Jewish and muslim kids be allowed to ask for a school lunch entry that doesnt contain pork? Since you know, by avoiding pork, they are practicing their religion?

So Oerdin, you up for vouchers for religious schools, so I can afford to send my kid to a school where she'll be allowed to say a short, quiet, blessing before eating?

	22-06-2005 00:35									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Barinthus at my school we have choices on what we want to buy so I don't see why an observant jew would have a problem since he can choose what to buy. It's like a cafe as opposite to standard school cafeteria where you're stuck with the menu of the day.

an observant jew isnt only required to avoid certain foods - theyre required to say a blessing before and after eating.

	22-06-2005 00:35									#90
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Say it mentally.