22-06-2005 01:27									#1
	Bridges/Canals Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is a major discussion over on CivFanatics. Not so much whether or not to include them, but how. Possibly the Apolyton crowd could have a fresh idea on it such as: (your comment)

Last edited by Illuminatiscott on 22-06-2005 at 04:48

	22-06-2005 02:36									#2
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Bah, CFC. I fart in their general direction

	22-06-2005 03:20									#3
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Ah... Canals. Just place a city on an isthmus one tile wide. Serves as a pretty convenient short cut for ships.

However, if an isthmus is two tiles wide... forget it. So... a canal would be nice, wouldn't it?

quote: This is a major discussion over on CivFanatics. Not so much whether or not to include them, but how. Possibly the Apolyton crowd could have a fresh idea on it such as: (your comment)

Ability to make "engineers" take a land square and give it the ability for ships to go on it - to simulate the capability of a canal. In short, ability to Build a Canal.

	22-06-2005 03:37									#4
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how about being able to plant one city right next to the other? This way they can move between cities

The other option would be to have a tile improvement that can only connect to either a city, sea, or another canal piece. But it can only connect to 2 squares (meaning no 3 or 4 way canal connections).

Effects would bee that ships could pass through, but each land unit passing over it automatically loses all his movement points, regardless of roads/railroads.
Also no other improvements can be built on that tile.

	22-06-2005 03:55									#5
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quote: Originally posted by MattPilot how about being able to plant one city right next to the other? This way they can move between cities

There is a major problem with that:
Canals, if allowed, would likely only be available in the industrial and modern ages (i know there are no ages, it's just for reference). With a city chain, one could effectively build a canal in any age.

	22-06-2005 07:25									#6
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ask Grandpa Troll about the other old canal thread

this has been beaten on before, I will be back with the link


and here it is, but called straights and canals

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=108086

	22-06-2005 07:44									#7
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city chaining (for naval access) is an exploit in my book

	22-06-2005 10:49									#8
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quote: how about being able to plant one city right next to the other?

Can you really do that in 3? I never bothered to find out.

	22-06-2005 12:49									#9
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quote: Originally posted by KyuuA4 Can you really do that in 3? I never bothered to find out.

Very wasteful.

	22-06-2005 16:07									#10
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canals would be fun because they would create defensive bonuses too...

but they should only be build on plains and grasslands... besides that normal roads and railroads would work because the ships couldnt fit so you should also build bridges (which cost a lot of time) making it hard to cross...thus not having the normal everything-paved-with-railroads country...which is handy but not very likely

	22-06-2005 16:28									#11
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Canals

	22-06-2005 17:24									#12
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I've always been suspicous of this feature. Let's just take the simple example of building a city on an isthmus. Sure, you probably could carry/roll those longboats or other earlier wooden boats from one body of water to the other...but modern vessels?

I don't like having the fact that a 1 pop point city can immediately start passing any and all naval traffic across the landmass. Real life canals that are capable of passing large naval vessels have been immense constructions efforts. There needs to be a better balance between playability and realism.

	22-06-2005 18:03									#13
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But what is important is to make ships not capable of fighting when inside a canal.

If not I fear one canal on every title and battleships taking the roll of land-units

	22-06-2005 18:47									#14
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quote: Originally posted by KyuuA4 Can you really do that in 3? I never bothered to find out.

I never tried in the early patches, but i know in the later patches, the game didn't allow two cities to be directly adjacent to each other

	22-06-2005 18:53									#15
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WHat about complete and total terraforming? It could take horrendously long, but change the world when it's done. Build hills along your border for defense, fill in swamps to make grassland, dam up rivers to make lakes behind them, etc...

	23-06-2005 09:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Illuminatiscott WHat about complete and total terraforming? It could take horrendously long, but change the world when it's done. Build hills along your border for defense, fill in swamps to make grassland, dam up rivers to make lakes behind them, etc...

I like the sound of that.

	23-06-2005 10:17									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Illuminatiscott WHat about complete and total terraforming? It could take horrendously long, but change the world when it's done. Build hills along your border for defense, fill in swamps to make grassland, dam up rivers to make lakes behind them, etc...

Not just canals either. Look what Germany did to slow down the advance of American units in WW2

should only be available near water sources such as lakes or rivers and at a certain era?

	23-06-2005 11:00									#18
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quote: Originally posted by KyuuA4 Can you really do that in 3? I never bothered to find out.

quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Very wasteful.

Beyond wasteful. Impossible.

	23-06-2005 16:21									#19
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Is there any problem about the simple way?

Bridge: Bring engeneer; idem as roads but harder to build (cost/time/tech/whattever).

Canal: With tech, and costly (cost, number of engineers and time). Forms a "river" tile.


Seems so simple... what's the problem?

	23-06-2005 17:42									#20
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I think the biggest problem would be how to keep it under control. After rail road when all my slaves have nothing else to do but wait for polution, I'd build them on every tile.

quote: posted by star mouse in the other thread Here's how I would do canals: * They would be built like any other terrain improvement but take a LONG time to construct. (How long did the Panama canal take to build and with how many workers?) There are also restrictions: * Can only be placed next to the coast. * Can only be placed on a flat tile. * Can only be placed such that the canal is one or two tiles in length and the canal is on an isthmus. * Costs money to build. * The canal replaces mines and irrigation. Canals would also be easy to destroy by pillaging and bombardment

That takes care of a few issues quite nicely.

	23-06-2005 18:13									#21
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Perhaps an upkeep system for railroads would be better. [/me ducks]

	23-06-2005 19:22									#22
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* Shogun Gunner throws something at GeoModder and misses

	23-06-2005 20:20									#23
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Did I say something wrong?

	24-06-2005 01:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by 1889 I think the biggest problem would be how to keep it under control. After rail road when all my slaves have nothing else to do but wait for polution, I'd build them on every tile. .

So now lets discuss shield/hammers cost and length of time and era build it.


19th centry
40-50 years
150 +/- shields


xtra workers will not decrease time left to build

let the debate begin

	24-06-2005 01:30									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex xtra workers will not decrease time left to build

This one option could make a lot more engineering projects feasible in CIV (whatever the cost, actually). Canals would be one thing, but think about dams, very long bridges, very long tunnels (RR through the Alps anyone?), and so on... Has this been confirmed, or are you just suggesting a feature?

By the way, the "19th century" requirement makes no sense. It should be a tech or a couple of techs instead, or you could get very weird timing on when canals become available.

	24-06-2005 01:36									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Modo44 By the way, the "19th century" requirement makes no sense. It should be a tech or a couple of techs instead, or you could get very weird timing on when canals become available.

just thoughts to get pepole thinking

xtra workers will not decrease time left to build

OR

minorly reduce the time left to build.Trying to avoid overnight builds

	24-06-2005 01:44									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex minorly reduce the time left to build.Trying to avoid overnight builds

This would be a flaw. We are talking dozens, or even hundreds of Slaves/Workers, so any reduction would have to be regarded as allowing insta-builds.

	24-06-2005 01:47									#28
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I can still hate the idea

	24-06-2005 02:29									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Illuminatiscott There is a major problem with that: Canals, if allowed, would likely only be available in the industrial and modern ages (i know there are no ages, it's just for reference). With a city chain, one could effectively build a canal in any age.

The ancient Chinese built several canals to link different river systems. Canal technology is not as advanced as some people think it is.

	24-06-2005 03:08									#30
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It's 'merely' the effort in manpower, in accordance with the ability how fast to dig and move the rocks/sand away.