22-08-2005 01:42									#61
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Here's my current set of untis. As you can see there's a lot of open units space. There also a great deal of units I'm unsure whether to use or not. I reckon my scenario will span from march 1941 to late 1942 sometime, with events taking care of reinforcements (There will be no production of units).

Any ideas on more units and when they should be introduced? Fairline? Case?

Attachment: units_preview.gif
This has been downloaded 201 time(s).

	22-08-2005 05:14									#62
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Definitely some character units or special command vehicle would be cool!

	22-08-2005 05:58									#63
	Inflate your Upload Space

if you need more info on tanks, go here,
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/
i am about to make some new italian armor too,

	22-08-2005 11:02									#64
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For the Brits/commonwealth you could use the following:

An early cruiser for the Arm'd Divs (I have a Mk IV graphic used in Dictator ToT) and Matilda for the Tank Bdes for the first part of the scenario. If you were to start the scenario earlier then LTVI and A9/A10 would be appropriate.

A Crusader I and Stuart I arriving in time for Op Crusader (Nov 41), with a Valentine for the Tank Bdes at about the same time.

A Grant in time for the Gazala Battles (May 42).

A Sherman II and Crusader III for El Alamein (Oct 42).

Priest SP in time for Alamein.

It might be cool to have special 7th Armd units which respawn after being defeated.

LRDG and SAS would add some colour (they were mounted in Ford and Chrysler vans with Lewis and Vickers guns).

NZ, Australian, Indian and SA troops are a must, given their contribution in the campaign. BTW, Aussies (and the rest for that matter) were dressed exactly the same as the Brits. Poles, FF and Greeks were much less important to the campaign (also dressed in standard British KD and tin hat BTW).

Perhaps an early recce unit (Morris C9B or Marmon-Herrington) and a later one (Daimler or Humber).

A divisional command unit to capture (armoured Matador truck) given that you intend the Afrika Korps to be the playable civ. Rommel and Monty units as well, taking Curt's special leader units theme?

2-pdt AT and 6-pdr in time for Alamein. 25-pdr for arty.

P-40 fighter, Hurri IIC/D for ground attack; Blenheim as early bomber and Maryland/B-25 etc later.

	22-08-2005 16:09									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Eivind IV Any ideas on more units and when they should be introduced? Fairline? Case?

As Fairline notes, the SAS or LRDG should be included (as they had similar roles and capabilities I'd only pick one - probably the SAS as it had a more offensive role and is easier to model in Civ). The Commonwealth should also have a M3 Grant tank, some heavy artillery (5.5 Inch guns?) and definetly the M4 Sherman (remove the question mark!).

Are you sure that German motorcycle recon troops are worth including? Given the terrain, I suspect that they weren't very significant in North Africa.

	22-08-2005 16:37									#66
	Put an end to popups!

Are you advising about the unit or the icon that portrays it? German recce units have an important role in most of the NA war games that I've played. I'd agree that a early 8-wheeler or a kubelwagon would be a more representative choice.

	23-08-2005 03:44									#67
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quote: Originally posted by fairline For the Brits/commonwealth you could use the following:

Cheers, Gareth! This input is priceless!


@Motorsycle-Recon:
According to the OOB I've been reading the Germans had many companies and battalions of motorsycles for recon. It's a non fighting unit anyway, so it shouldn't matter if it is a kübelwagen or a motorsycle.

@Commonwealth troops:
You think I should seperate between Aussies and N. Zealandies? If so, in which divisions and brigades to put them?

Also where could I add the S. Africans?

After some changes and tweaks, here's the units. Still need tips for units!

Like the idea of a regeneratable 7th armd div btw, gareth!

	23-08-2005 05:07									#68
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Eivind, the only Polish forces in the Middle East was the Carpathian Independant Rifle Bde (they fought at Tobruk and the Gazala Battles). By contrast there were two entire divisions of South Africans (1st and 2nd) that fought in the campaign - I'd replace the Poles with SA troops.

	23-08-2005 05:12									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Boco Are you advising about the unit or the icon that portrays it? German recce units have an important role in most of the NA war games that I've played. I'd agree that a early 8-wheeler or a kubelwagon would be a more representative choice.

The 4-wheel Sdkfz 222 was the most commonplace recce unit equipment at this time

	23-08-2005 05:29									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Eivind IV @Commonwealth troops: You think I should seperate between Aussies and N. Zealandies? If so, in which divisions and brigades to put them?

Definitely - the 2nd NZ Division was one of the elite formations of the campaign. The Australian OOB in theatre was originally 6th, 7th and 9th Divisions, all sent to Egypt in 1940. Of these, 6th Div fought in Greece and Crete, 7th Div took part in the invasion of Syria and Lebanon, while the 9th and part of 7th Div defended Tobruk for a time. All but 9th Division were withdrawn to the Pacific and far East when Japan declared War; 9th Division played an important role on the Northern seaward flank at Alamein.

The 2nd NZ division comprised 4th, 5th and 6th NZ Brigades, together with divisional arty, recce regiment, AT Regt etc.

The 9th Australian Div comprised 25th, 26th and 27th Aus Bdes together with the usual 3 field arty regiments (Bn strength), divisional cavalry regiment (recce armd car bn), AT Regiment (Bn strength) etc.

	23-08-2005 21:29									#71
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I'd much rather have both the Poles and th SA. I have room for them both. I've also added NZ to the unit list

When did the 2nd NZ division arrive in North Africa then? And what about the South Africans? I'm a bit tied down by not having the arsenal of books I understand you have so it's a bit hard for me to know all these details. And I have yet to find a decent internet site that can tell me whenever the theatre (both axis & allies) was reinforced, by whom and with what...So I really apreciate all the help!

	23-08-2005 22:20									#72
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2nd NZ Division was formed in Egypt in 1940. They fought in Crete and the survivors were evacuated back to N. Africa. Elements were first involved in the fighting in the Western Desert on the withdrawal to Matruh in Sep '40. After returning from Crete and reformaing they were involved in the Operation Crusader battles and were in action fairly consistently through the rest of the campaign all the way to Tunisia. They played an important role in the northern sector at El Alamein, and the pursuit to Tunisia thereafter.

The 1st SA division was in theatre in May 41 after fighting in Abyssinia. They were in action until Alamein.

The 2nd SA division arrived in Egypt in June 41 and fought in the final defence of Tobruk where they were captured in the defeat there.

	24-08-2005 02:27									#73
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Fairline do you have a complete list, or should I go digging into my closet for wargames?

	24-08-2005 02:53									#74
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I think I might have it all covered now, but thanks anyway!

	24-08-2005 05:28									#75
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Ok, here's what my research has told me. Feel free to comment and correct or add anything to this list. I havn't looked up every single regiment here like I've done on my placement OOB, so the translations into civ2 units are only temporary "translations".

EVENTS FOR ALLIES:
---------------------
JUNE 1941:

1ST (SOUTH AFRICAN) DIVISION:

1st South African Infantry Brigade:
- 3 SA inf's
- 1 AT
- 1 arty

2nd South African Infantry Brigade:
- 4 SA inf's
- 1 arty

3nd South African Infantry Brigade:
- 3 SA inf's
- 1 arty

5nd South African Infantry Brigade:
- 3 SA inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

2ND (SOUTH AFRICAN) DIVISION:

3rd (South African) Infantry Brigade
- 3 SA inf's
- 1 AT
- 1 arty

4th (South African) Infantry Brigade
- 3 SA inf's
- 1 arty

6th (South African) Infantry Brigade
- 3 SA inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

69th Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

150th Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

151th Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

JULY 1941 (Operation Brevity):

21st Australian Brigade:
- 3 aus inf's
- 1 arty

25th Australian Brigade:
- 3 aus inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

5th Indian Infantry Brigade:
- 3 ind inf's
- 1 arty

7th Indian Infantry Brigade:
- 3 ind inf's
- 1 arty

11th Indian Infantry Brigade:
- 3 ind inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

5th South African Infantry Brigade:
- 3 SA inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

2nd Armour Brigade:
- 3 Crusaders

7th Motor Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's

---------------------

AUGUST 1941:

1st Free French Infantry Brigade:
- 3 free french inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

SEPTEMBER 1941:

132nd Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

133rd Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

131nd Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

NOVEMBER 1941:

No. 231 Wing RAF (Wellington)
No. 236 Wing RAF (Wellington)
No. 238 Wing RAF (Wellington)
No. 242 Wing RAF (Wellington)
No. 245 Wing RAF (Wellington)
No. 205 Liberator (Transporter)

---------------------

FEBRUARY 1942:

No. 239 Wing RAF (Hawker Hurricane)
No. 244 Wing RAF (Hawker Hurricane)

---------------------

150th Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

151st Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

APRIL 1942:

New brigade fort he 7th armoured division:

7th Motor Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

JULY 1942:

No. 283 Wing RAF (Hawker Hurricane)
No. 216 Group - Transport Squadrons - Avro 685 York

---------------------

AUGUST 1942:

152nd Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

153rd Brigade Infantry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

154th Brigade Infatry Brigade:
- 3 brit inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------

OCTOBER 1942:

1 (Guards) Infantry Bde:
- 3 guards
- 1 arty

11 Infantry Bde:
- 3 guards
- 1 arty

36 Infantry Bde:
- 3 guards
- 1 arty

---------------------

6th Armoured Brigade:
- 3 tanks (?)

38th (Irish) Brigade:
- 3 (Irish?) inf's
- 1 arty

1st (Guards) Infantry Brigade:
- 3 Guards
- 1 arty

-----------------------------------------------------------

EVENTS FOR GERMANS:
---------------------------

JULY 1941:

200. Infanterie-Regiment (mot.):
- 2 Machinengewehr
- 1 inf's
- 1 arty
- 1 motorsycle

361. Infanterie-Regiment (mot.):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty
- 1 motorsycle

---------------------------

JULY 1941:

- Kampfgescwader 54 (Heinkel 111)

---------------------------

SEPTEMBER 1941:

- Kampfgescwader 100 (Heinkel 111)

---------------------------

FEBRUARY 1942:

- 2 new Pz IVG - upgraded

---------------------------

MAY 1942:

433. Infanterie-Regiment (mot.):
- 3 Machinengewehr
- 1 arty
- 1 motorsycle

382. Infanterie-Regiment (mot.):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty
- 1 motorsycle

125. Infanterie-Regiment (mot.):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty
- 1 motorsycle

---------------------------

JULY 1942:

8. Panzerregiment disbanded. 5. Panzer Regiment upgraded:
- 2 new PZIVG

- 4 Para battalions in August 1942:
"Ramcke's Fallschirmjager Brigade arrive in North Africa from Crete as a reinforcement for Rommel."

---------------------------

OCTOBER 1942:

Panzergrenadier-Regiment 'Afrika':
- 9 Mech inf

-----------------------------------------------------------

EVENTS FOR ITALY:
---------------------------

APRIL 1941:

61 Rgt. Fanteria (Trento):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty

62 Rgt. Fanteria (Trento):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty

---------------------------

MAY 1942

186 Rgt. Fanteria (Fologore)
- 3 paratroopers

187 Rgt. Fanteria (Fologore)
- 3 paratroopers

---------------------------

JULY 1942:

33 Rgt. Carri (Littorio):
- 3 CV-33 (L3)

133 Rgt. Carri (Littorio):
- 2 M.13/40

12 Rgt. Bersaglieri (Littorio):
- 3 Bersaglieri inf

---------------------------

SEPTEMBER 1942:

125 Rgt. Fanteria (La Spezia):
- 3 Paratroopers

126 Rgt. Fanteria (La Spezia):
- 3 Paratroopers

91 Rgt. Fanteria (Pistona):
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty

29 Rgt. Fanteria (Pistona):
- 3 inf's
- 1 atry

---------------------------

OCTOBER 1942

35 Rgt. Fanteria (Pistoa)
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty

36 Rgt. Fanteria (Pistoa)
- 3 inf's
- 1 arty

	25-08-2005 15:29									#76
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Eivind IV @Motorsycle-Recon: According to the OOB I've been reading the Germans had many companies and battalions of motorsycles for recon.

Were these the divisions OOBs in North Africa or their generic organistion?

quote: You think I should seperate between Aussies and N. Zealandies?

Yes! - the Kiwi troops were used quite differently to the Australians and developed their own unique organisation (after the 4th(?) NZ brigade was destroyed it was reformed as an armoured brigade, giving the NZ division a unique structure of two infantry brigades and an armoured brigade.

	25-08-2005 18:14									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Case Were these the divisions OOBs in North Africa or their generic organistion?

N. Africa:

15. Panzer-Division

quote: Originally posted by Case Yes! - the Kiwi troops were used quite differently to the Australians and developed their own unique organisation (after the 4th(?) NZ brigade was destroyed it was reformed as an armoured brigade, giving the NZ division a unique structure of two infantry brigades and an armoured brigade.

Ok, good to know. But when did these Kiwis enter the theatre? When to put them into action via events?

	25-08-2005 21:35									#78
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Ok, my scan of your list may have missed these, but anyway:

1st Armd Div: 2nd Amd Bde Gp - 3 regts (ie bn strength)
- 1 mot inf bn
- 1 RHA Regt (25-pdr)
- 2 LAAR (Bofors 40mm)
200th Guards Motor Bge Gp - 3 inf bn
- 1 RHA Regt
Divisional troops - 1 Armd Car Regt (Bn)

8th Armd Div: 23rd Armd Bde - 3 regts
24th Armd Bde - 3 regts
8th Support Gp - 2 RHA/RA Regts
- 1 ATR
- 1 LAAR
- 1 mot inf bn
Divisional troops - 1 Armd Car Regt (Bn)


10th Armd Div: 8th Armd Bde - 3 regts
- 1 mot inf bn
24th Amd Bde - 3 regts (ex-8th Armd)
- 1 mot inf bn
133 Inf Bde (ex-44 Div) - 3 inf bn
Divisional arty: 3 regts RHA/RA
1 ATR (6-pdr)
1 LAAR
Divisional troops - 1 Armd Car Regt (Bn)

1st and 32nd Army Tank Bdes (each 3 x Matilda or Valentine)

Note that British armoured, artillery and armoured recce regiments were equivalent to US/German battalions

Also, 8th Armoured division never fought as a single entity - it was broken up and it's constituent brigades fought independantly - 24th fought under command of 10th Armd Div at Alamein and 23rd was equiped with Valentines and fought as an Army Tank Brigade.

7th Armoured Div - It started out with 4th and 7th armoured brigades, was reinforced with 22nd - 7th ended up in the Far East and 4th fought independantly. It also had 1 armoured brigade ex-2nd Armoured division under command at one time IIRC.

Last edited by fairline on 26-08-2005 at 11:31

	26-08-2005 08:08									#79
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Did the Brits ever fight a war without constantly juggling brigades?

	26-08-2005 11:23									#80
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Nope

They still do it now; the battalion has always been the largest consistently cohesive formation. Brigades chop and change battalions and Divisions chop and change brigades. The Division with fixed regiments and regiments with fixed battalions is a new-fangled US invention

	26-08-2005 11:40									#81
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I can't remember which site I found this Allied air force OOB - suffice to say it's not my work but somebody else's. It lists Allied squadrons at the time of El Alamein.

Attachment: 23oct1942_allied_airforce_egypt.txt
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	26-08-2005 20:16									#82
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quote: Originally posted by fairline Ok, my scan of your list may have missed these, but anyway:

Thanks! But when did these units appear? I can't seem to find them...

quote: Originally posted by Boco Did the Brits ever fight a war without constantly juggling brigades?

Yeah, having gone in debt to the campaign oob's the last couple of weeks it's quite a mess actually

Also, here's the latest units file. Most of the gaps are now filled. Only 1 remainding unit to go. I figured it would be another tank upgrade for the 7th armoured div. Di the 7th armoured div ever ahve any shermans or priests within their ranks?

Also, Gareth, you wouldn't by any chance have a 2-pdr laying around? Possibly a CV.35 and an Italian para?

Have a nice weekend everyone! Enjoy!

	26-08-2005 21:03									#83
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Eivind IV Thanks! But when did these units appear? I can't seem to find them...

1st Armoured Div arrived in the Middle East in 41 but first saw action there in the Gazala battles in 42. 8th Armoured arrived mid/late 42, was broken up and it's brigades first saw action at Alamein. 10th Armd Div was first engaged at Alem el Halfa and fought at Alamein.

quote: ... Di the 7th armoured div ever ahve any shermans or priests within their ranks?

Yes, but not 'til after Alamein . To give you some idea, here are the numbers of the different varieties of tanks in use at Alamein for each of the armoured brigades:

2nd AB - 68 Crusader III, 92 Sherman II
4th LtAB - 14 Grant, 57 Stuarts
8th AB - 45 Crusader III, 57 Grants, 31 Sherman II
9th AB - 46 Crusader III, 37 Grants, 35 Sherman II
22nd AB - 46 Crusader III, 57 Grants, 19 Stuarts
23rd AB - 186 Valentines
24th AB - 45 Crusader III, 93 Sherman II

quote: Also, Gareth, you wouldn't by any chance have a 2-pdr laying around? Possibly a CV.35 and an Italian para?

Gonna be busy for a month or so, but I'd be glad to help then.

	28-08-2005 02:10									#84
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quote: Only 1 unit remaining to go

what about mine fields?

	28-08-2005 10:53									#85
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edit, minefields would be good,
edit yet again,
this link may prove useful, it is a detailed timeline of the war in the desert,
http://www.worldwar-2.net/timelines...esert-index.htm

Last edited by Broken_Erika on 28-08-2005 at 11:03

	30-08-2005 20:52									#86
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Minefields is a good idea.

I have a problem I hope someone with good knowledge of events could help me with. I'm experimenting with MOVEUNIT events, with very little success. Am I doing anything wrong here, because this doesn't yield any results what-so-ever. Completely dead. I read somewhere that especially for long distances the game get confused, but not even for relatively short distances it's working. I was hoping this could work, as it would make the game more interesting against the AI. Without this event working I can nothing but only reccomend the game for multiplayer.

@IF
SCENARIOLOADED
@THEN
MOVEUNIT
unit=AnyUnit
owner=Eighth Army
maprect
187,49,187,49,187,49,187,49
moveto
160,36
numbertomove=ALL
@ENDIF

	30-08-2005 21:27									#87
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Nemo wrote a tip on the moveunit command, which is on the Cradle site, here: http://coc.apolyton.net/guides/index.shtml

The structure of your event is fine. I suspect that it's the scenarioloaded trigger that's not connecting with the units. Try a turn based trigger or a receivedtechnology one if you want it to continue each turn. I used this in Red October:

@IF
ReceivedTechnology
receiver=Poles
technology=33
@THEN
MOVEUNIT
unit=AnyUnit
owner=Poles
maprect
9,29,13,29,13,37,9,37
moveto
19,39
numbertomove=ALL
@ENDIF

ToT has a taketechnology event, so I could also turn this off. You couldn't do that in MGE.

Last edited by techumseh on 30-08-2005 at 21:39

	30-08-2005 23:46									#88
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I tried with a turn based trigger. Nuthin'! But as this scenario won't have actual research, I might use the tech tree to move around units (First and foremost those that will come by events, but the starting ones as well if doable).

I'll try it out! Cheers!

	04-09-2005 22:38									#89
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Right now I'm on the verge of giving up. The AI is so insanely stupid it makes all my efforts useless. Even with the goto commands it will not obey. And for it to even function on a basic level I would have to use all my event space on goto commands. What a fvcking shame nothing can be done to the AI for civ2...makes me wonder why the hell I even bother making scenarios for such a faulty game...certainly not a morale booster for future projects

As it is now the scenario would only work as a human vs human scenario

	04-09-2005 23:25									#90
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I'm sorry to hear that. Which side is supposed to be played?

Here's the most efficient move unit events combo I've found. I used it in Operation Market-Garden and it worked well.

@IF
TURN
turn=Every
@THEN
MOVEUNIT
unit=AnyUnit
owner=Germans
maprect
0,66,38,66,38,86,0,66
moveto
13,79
numbertomove=all
@ENDIF

@IF
UNITKILLED
Unit=AnyUnit
Attacker=Anybody
Defender=Anybody
@THEN
MOVEUNIT
unit=AnyUnit
owner=Germans
maprect
0,66,38,66,38,86,0,66
moveto
13,79
numbertomove=all
@ENDIF

Basically, every German unit gets a move order every turn and a reminder anytime any unit from any civ gets killed. All it takes is 2 events. As Nemo said in his tip, the secret is to keep the units moving by giving them repeated commands.

If you'd like someone to have a fresh look at your work and provide some suggestions, I'd be pleased to do it.