22-06-2005 05:08									#1
	The Desert War - Preview and development thread Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Welcome to North Africa - a sandy hot hell! The desert fox and the desert rats are bashing together in a fight for the desert wasteland

It's a project I started a couple of years ago but abandonded as I grew tired of scenario making for a while. The map alone took me an eternity to make before I was satisfied. Just recently I took it off the shelf and blew dust off it.

The scenario starts in march 1941, with Rommel's first offensive and will continue until the bitter end in Tunisia and beyond, if that is indeed the outcome.

There are 3 different versions of this scenario. 2 SP versions and 1 MP version. The SP versions are playable either as the Axis or the Commonwealth. If you choose the Axis the axis will start with historical correct unit placement, while the commonwealth will be improvised to make the AI a tougher nut to crack. Vica verca with the other SP version. The MP version have historical placement on both sides.

There will be little or no shield production. Everything will be event controlled/created. So if you want supplies/equipment (money to rush buy improvements) or reinforcements (units) you will need to "request" (research) them. So the tech tree has been transformed to a "supply tree". Do you need more fighters? Well, then send an envoy to Berlin (research "fighter reinforcements" ) and ask for an audience with the Führer, then tell him what you need. Surely he'll understand The units will land in one of the major ports you control.

Here's the units divided between the Axis and the Commonwealth. Generic units are not listed:

Germany:
1 italia inf w/ rifle
2 german inf w/rifle

1 italia inf w/ MG
2 german inf w/ MG

1 german motor inf
2 italia motor inf

1 fallschirmjäger

1 mech inf

---

1 italia M13/40 (early med tank)
2 german T-38 (early med tank)

1 Pz I (light tank)
2 Pz II (light tank

1 Pz III (medium tank)
2 Pz IV (medium tank)

1 Pz VI (heavy tank)

1 Flak 88mm (anti tank, anti air)

---

1 Ju-87 (ground attack)

1 Ju-52 (bomber)
2 Do-17 (bomber)
3 He-111 (bomber)

1 MC 202 (fighter)
2 ME-109 (fighter)

1 FW-190 (interceptor)

-----------

Commonwealth:
1 brit inf w/ rifle
2 aust inf w/ rifle
3 indi inf w/ rifle

1 brit inf w/ MG

1 brit motor inf
2 aust motor inf
3 poli motor inf

1 mech inf

---

1 M3 (inf support
2 vickers (inf support)

1 matilda (medium tank)
2 cruiser (medium tank)

1 sherman (medium tank)
2 M5 (medium tank)

1 valentine (heavy tank)
---

1 typhoon (ground attack)

1 spitfire (fighter)
2 P40 (fighter)

1 hurricane (interceptor)

1 Wellington (bomber)
2 B-24 (bomber)

The civs are as following:
1. Axis
2. Commonwealth

(3. Vichy France
4. Syria
5. Greece
6. Turkey
7. Saudi Arabia)

Not all units are figured out yet, so please comment.

Vichy France, Syria and Greece will be AI controlled, and are there only to be invaded basically. Non combattants such as Turkey and Saudi Arabia are eliminated for play whatsoever, just like I did with the neutral states in my Norwegian Campaign scenario. Take a look at the screenshot over Syria and you'll see what I mean.

Comments and or suggestions are welcome!

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Last edited by Eivind IV on 22-06-2005 at 05:17

	22-06-2005 05:09									#2
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S1

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	22-06-2005 05:11									#3
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S2

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	22-06-2005 05:11									#4
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S3

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	22-06-2005 10:16									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well first off I love those screenshots Eivind, the desert terrain looks fantastic. Some of those units just might be the best damn MGE units I have ever seen in my life.

As for the city styles, I wonder if it might be more appropriate to use some sort of middle eastern city graphic rather than a european style for the commonwealth civ, much like the current middle eastern style of mine you used. In addition perhaps the Union Jack itself should fly over egypt.....

.... just a thought.

	23-06-2005 09:55									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

From looking at the first screenshot, it seems that you may want to either use a larger map (much easier said then done I know!) or reduce the number of towns in North Africa. While the key characteristic of the war in North Africa was rapid moving warfare over large distances, that map is going to result in a slug-fest.

Also, AFAIK Benghazi and Tripoli were the only towns in Libya with large populations. The rest were tiny villages. I believe that Tobruk's peacetime population was only a few thousand people.

	23-06-2005 16:46									#7
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I would give the commonwealth the union jack, and the axis the German battle flag....

	23-06-2005 20:43									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Regarding the city styles, I can'y use anything else than european for the allied/axis as Italy is included as well. Besides, it's only graphics

The commonwealth civ will get the union jack. I'd much rather use an italian flag for the axis, but since greece is included, I'll stick to the generic axis flag. (I'm avoiding any swasticas, so no german battle flags).

Thanks for that input, Case, but the map stays. I have already reduced the size of the original map size I used to make the scenario less extensive. Also, all small villages are represented by city sizes from 3-4.

	23-06-2005 21:26									#9
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Gfx look very good , but Libya does appear too urbanized and fertile.

What kind of feel are you aiming for in N. Africa, traditional Civ or something more see-saw and sweeping? E.g. how many turns does it require to capture Libya? Will the AI be able to counterattack effectively (i.e. overwhelmingly at times)?

Do you have plans for Greece and Turkey?

	23-06-2005 22:09									#10
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Eivind: you already know my views about the map and scale. The vast majority of the North African campaign was fought in Cyrenaica in battles which saw the British Empire and Axis forces advance and retreat many times over the same ground. A map going from Tripoli to Alex would cover all of the practical objectives of both sides.

Leaving my preferences to one side (hey, this is your scenario!), there are a number of things you may wish to consider regarding the units. Firstly, the WDF and later 8th Army was a truly multi-national affair; the contribution of S. African and NZ divisions shouldn't be ignored, as I see you have British, Aussie and Indian troops already represented. British divisions were motorised throughout the War and the inclusion of motorised infantry in addition to regular infantry is superflous. Only the Italian divisions in N. Africa suffered from a serious lack of motor transport (all the German divisions were armoured or motorised).

The Typhoon was not used in N. Africa. The FW-190 made an appearance only late on after Libya had fallen and the Axis were retreating. The Hurricane was the most important Allied fighter in the theatre, particularly in the ground attack role. The Pz 38t was not used. Where are the early Brit cruiser tanks? Where is the Grant? Why include a Stuart M5 (only used after the Torch landings)? Where is the 25-pdr, the weapon that more than any other won the desert war? If you include the Tiger (again, only available at the end of the campaign) then the Churchill tank should also be included.

Sorry if this sounds negative, but I would have a serious think about the units

	23-06-2005 22:16									#11
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Indeed, cutting back on the trucks would free up some room for other units too.

	23-06-2005 23:16									#12
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Actually, Gareth, I've read a personal account of a British tanker who, during operation Crusader, was in a "Honey," the Brit slang for Stuarts. I don't recall if it was the 4th, 7th, or 22nd armored brigade that was equipped with them, but one of them certainly was.

The problems of the Stuart were revealed in the account. The tank commander's squadron was decimated by a German anti-tank unit and he was only saved because the first shell that struck his tank hit the water cans (spraying him with water, which he found incongruous, but refreshing). He only escaped by gunning his Honey over the edge of the coastal escarpment.

The British in north Africa received a plethora of American equipment at various times, and the Stuart, Grant, and Sherman all saw their first combats in various armored (or armoured, for those reluctant to endorse spelling reform, lol) brigades of the 8th army.

	24-06-2005 00:36									#13
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Exile, I gotta love the humor and flavor of your off-color, uncivilized preemptive revenge at the patronizing proponents of archaic forms of English.

	24-06-2005 01:29									#14
	Yes, but is it flavour and humour? Got spare money?

Sometimes you feel like a nut . . .

	24-06-2005 01:48									#15
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Well if your ever in need of any flags or shields you know where you can reach me.

	24-06-2005 02:04									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Exile Actually, Gareth, I've read a personal account of a British tanker who, during operation Crusader, was in a "Honey," the Brit slang for Stuarts. I don't recall if it was the 4th, 7th, or 22nd armored brigade that was equipped with them, but one of them certainly was. The problems of the Stuart were revealed in the account. The tank commander's squadron was decimated by a German anti-tank unit and he was only saved because the first shell that struck his tank hit the water cans (spraying him with water, which he found incongruous, but refreshing). He only escaped by gunning his Honey over the edge of the coastal escarpment. The British in north Africa received a plethora of American equipment at various times, and the Stuart, Grant, and Sherman all saw their first combats in various armored (or armoured, for those reluctant to endorse spelling reform, lol) brigades of the 8th army.

Yes they did Phenix (it was 4AB BTW; 7th and 22nd used Crusaders in Op Crusader) - but they only received the M3 Stuart, not the later M5 Stuart which was used in small numbers by the US in N. Africa. Eivind has both in his units file, and I think he could drop the M5. The Honey was only a light tank, but was as well armed and armoured as an early British cruiser.

You make an important point here - the acquisition of US tanks helped the Brits counter the Germans in the later WD battles.

Eivind: The progression of tanks available to the British went something like this:

Operation Compass: LTVI and various Cruisers (A9, A10, A13) for 7th Amd Div, Matilda II's for 7RTR

Operation Brevity: A9/A10/A13 and Matilda II

Operation Crusader: A9/A10/A13 Cruisers, Crusader, Stuart for 4, 7 and 22 Armd Bdes , Matilda, Valentine for 1 and 32 Army Tank Bdes

Gazala Battles: Crusaders, Grants, Stuarts for 1, 2, 4 and 22 Armd Bdes, Matilda and Valentine for 1 and 32 Army Tank Bdes

El Alamein: Crusader IIIs, Grants and Shermans for 1st, 7th and 10th Armd Divs, Stuarts for 4LAB, Valentines for the Tank Brigades

The Churchill was introduced in late 42 and fought in Tunisia with the tank Bdes

	24-06-2005 02:06									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Exile ...(spraying him with water, which he found incongruous, but refreshing).

Typical Limey

	24-06-2005 07:57									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Regarding the scale, this reminds me of the North Africa wargame for the Europa series by GDW. It's a little more strategic in scope, and includes Malta and it's impact on Axis operations in North Africa, as well as the British invasion of Vichy controlled Lebanon and Syria. The naval war in the Mediterranean is abstracted.

In this case, I think you could trim the map north of Sicily without losing anything of importance.

The level of Axis pressure on Malta is key to how much supply and reinforcement reaches the Afrika Korps. Have you any ideas on how to tackle this?

How will the naval war be handled?

ps. this serves you right for picking a campaign everyone know something about. I prefer more obscure subjects myself.

	24-06-2005 15:17									#19
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quote: Originally posted by fairline Firstly, the WDF and later 8th Army was a truly multi-national affair; the contribution of S. African and NZ divisions shouldn't be ignored, as I see you have British, Aussie and Indian troops already represented.

OTOH, the organisation and combat power of these fomations was identical. Having all the nationalities represented does add a hell of a lot of 'colour' though.

quote: Originally posted by fairline British divisions were motorised throughout the War and the inclusion of motorised infantry in addition to regular infantry is superflous.

...not to mention that truck-mounted infantry looks ugly As the soldiers got out their trucks before going into action these graphics could be simplified.

quote: Originally posted by fairline Only the Italian divisions in N. Africa suffered from a serious lack of motor transport

I'm not sure about that - the Commonwealth forces were short of transport during Operation Compass in 1940 - after the first phase of the campaign all that kept them going was the suprisingly large quantity of working trucks they captured from the Italians.

quote: Originally posted by fairline The Hurricane was the most important Allied fighter in the theatre, particularly in the ground attack role.

The P-40 must have come a very close second. The German aircraft all seem to have underpeformed in the theatre - I suspect that they were less able to cope with the climate than the more robust British and American designs.

quote: Originally posted by fairline The Honey was only a light tank, but was as well armed and armoured as an early British cruiser.

...and, more importantly, it was vastly more reliable than British tanks. It says a lot when crews are willing to give up somewhat more survivable tanks for something which doesn't break down all the time

	24-06-2005 21:53									#20
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@Boco:
I havn't done the actual placements yet. I have them all counted out at my sheet though, ready for deployment. So I havn't done any actual tests yet, but I hope to include a lot of GoTo events, combined with the AI beeing alowed to build units traditionally, to make the AI more capable of holding in.

Greece will be invaded by Axis forces on the second turn of the scenario (april 1941).

Turkey's (and Saudi Arabia) only there for show. Completely impossible to attack and play. I've used the same "technique" as I did for the neutral states in my Norwegian Campaign scenario.

@Fairline:
Most of the action will be in Libya/Egypt after all, as that's where all the initial units are placed. Events will take things from there on, giving units and cash for various objectives. There's also a combination of railroad and regular road on the road northmost of the coast of Africa, so there's plenty of room for manouverability around more inland roads (no railways).

I agree with Case that having seperate countries representated adds more flavour. If it in end proves I need those slots for other units, I'll do so. But for now I want to keep it as simple as possible.

Apreciate the info on the units. Units have been remove and added according to your input.

Many units such as the tiger won't even be "researchable", but rather be given to the axis if the Allies reach Tunisia.

I'll try and make something on those operations via events. But some player performance should also decide the faith of the campaign.

@Sarsstock:
How about a title instead?

@techumseh:
For malta I plan to make a seperate "Malta unit", which will have a 50% chance of getting killed if attacked by a regular bomber. If it gets killed the Allies will loose 500 gold or so. Either that or create money for the Axis. This unit will respawn itself, so this effectively makes Malta impossible to capture. I can't think of any other way to represent Malta's role during the campaign.

I'm also thinking of removing war ships completely, but create some transporters after certain cities are captured. For example if Tunis is captured by the Allies.

@All:
I apreciate all the help I can get, so keep the comments coming!

Last edited by Eivind IV on 24-06-2005 at 22:03

	25-06-2005 16:21									#21
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Some considerations about units:

* Tiger tanks used in Tunisia were only 15
* The Semovente 75/18 (tank-hunter) was extensively used by italians
* You should add M14/40 tank; it was used as much as M 13/39
* The bulk of "bomber command" in Afrika was formed by Ju 87 Stuka and mainly from SM 79 Sparviero and CANT Z 1007bis Alcione operating mainly from Egean islands and metropolitan bases. SM 79 was, from 1941, only used as a torpedo-bomber
* P-39 Lightning was used extensively in the battle of Tunisia
* In the first phase of African Warfare the standard italian fighter were Macchi MC200 Saetta and FIAT G-50 Freccia ; also FIAT CR42 Falco was used. MC 202 Folgore was sent on Africa in late 1941
* Anti-tank guns used by British at El-Alamein were 90mm. Italian anti-tank guns were mainly high-speed 47mm (deadly against Crusaders but completely unuseful against Matilda). Italians used also some 90mm anti-tank-air cannons (as excellent as 88m, but very expensive to build)

Will the scenario finish in early 1943 or can continue later? In this case you should add a lot of other units that couldn't partecipate in african warfare but were available in mid '43

	25-06-2005 16:28									#22
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Here's some units that could be useful

M 13/39
M 14/40 (actually the two should look more similar, but perhaps an "intervention" from the "Tank-Master" Fairline could fix this problem )
CANT 1007bis Alcione
SM 79 Sparviero (bomber version)
SM 79 Sparviero (torpedo-bomber version)
FIAT G 50 Freccia

I see you used my MC 202 Folgore (I'm honored), but I made it some time ago and it's a bit "out to date", so I think I will be give you and "improved" version as soon as possible

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	25-06-2005 20:08									#23
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i made an italian p40 heavy tank, but i don't think it was used in africa,

	25-06-2005 20:57									#24
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i tried to make an m-40 assault gun but i am no exactly pleased with the result,

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	11-07-2005 03:01									#25
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Sooo, what's going on? Any progress?

	11-07-2005 05:18									#26
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Hello again!

Not really, Jimmy, I'm very much enjoying my vacation at the moment

	13-07-2005 14:47									#27
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are you going to start with the Italians being based by, was it Waverly? and then have the german forces come to the rescue.

As mentioned earlier by many, the best part of the scenario will be to design the resupply mechanism. I say have actual ships and actual AI unnits trying to sink those ships.

My vote is for a way to storm malta permanently, maybe you need to sacrifice supplies for North Africa and its a trade off.

p.s. consider the gigant transporter

	15-07-2005 23:38									#28
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The scenario starts in march 1940. The Germans are already there, ready to strike.

I was initially thinking of having the "supplies" coming to one of the major N. African ports you control, but I will have to think about if maybe having the units land in Italy first ready to be transported is better.

I've also decided to make a sequal after this one, with the same units and same rules values etc, only with a large Libya-Egypt map.

Btw, does anyone know what type of artillery the various regiments/batallions around march 1940 used? Would maybe a single field artillery unit translate better to civ2?

	16-07-2005 00:50									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Eivind, The Germans didn't arrive until 41, after a single British and single Australian division under Wavell and O'Conner had inflicted a massive defeat on the Italians, knocked out 150-200 000 troops and captured Cyrenaica. To have the Germans in place initially is completely un-historical

	16-07-2005 01:29									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Blah, I ment 1941 of course, as all my other posts say