23-06-2005 12:36									#1
	Scientology - Your Opinion Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

As I had a discussion with some other people about scientology within another Forum, I came across the Fact, that Scientology in some countries outside of germany is either seen as harmless or even has the status of a religion (for example within the USA).
Whereas in germany it is considered as rather dangerous and either a sect or a concern, whis is under close observation by the government.

So I was curious what other people within Apolyton think about Scientology.

I for my part think that there are enough stories like these:
http://home.snafu.de/tilman/j/berlin.html
So IMHO they are de facto dangerous and should rather be considered a sect (like Baghwan) than an organized religion (sadly with much more influence than Baghwan had)

Made it into a multiple choice poll, so those too lazy or shy to post something can still express their opinion through the poll

Last edited by Proteus_MST on 23-06-2005 at 12:44

	23-06-2005 12:59									#2
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Dangerous racket. One might say so are other religions but I think there's a difference when it comes to Scientology. It's worse. It's more clear of a racket. Fook up the people's minds. I do not think it has any positive uses.

	23-06-2005 13:07									#3
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The man seems to be sufferring from paranoid schizophrenia. BUT, if what he's saying is true...it's like he's describing a 1984-esque organization here.

If Scientology is some kind of organization determined to rule the world, they're doing a bad job at it. They're being too public and known.

And they'd have more competition between the Illuminati or any of the other secret organizations.




But do I consider Scientology a religion? I don't know. I don't know what it's about so I can't say.

	23-06-2005 13:10									#4
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I don't think it should be forbidden

I do think it is dangerous

and that it is a sect.. (most religions are or were sects.. so I am not saying anything about it being a religion)

I do think it should be under observation

JM

	23-06-2005 13:40									#5
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Operation Clambake is a good source of info on Scientology.

	23-06-2005 16:25									#6
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Dangerous. They should be beaten and jailed.

	23-06-2005 16:29									#7
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It's a religion, and at the very least it's dangerous to its adherents.

	23-06-2005 17:22									#8
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L. Ron Hubbard started out as an unlicensed therapist who cashed in on the crasiness of the 1960s, then when the IRS came knocking on his door decided to convert his business into a religion. It was Ronald Regan who ordered Scientology to be given the tax status of a religion by the IRS, probably because so many of his actor cronies belonged to it. Frankly Scientology should have been quashed 40 years ago.

	23-06-2005 17:40									#9
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The Doctor speaks the truth.

	23-06-2005 17:52									#10
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Meh. They're impotent and stupid. Let Darwin take care of the rest.

	23-06-2005 18:10									#11
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where's the "they're batshit crazy, but I couldn't give a ****" option?

	23-06-2005 18:16									#12
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Hmmm, why isn't **** censored?

	23-06-2005 18:21									#13
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that's strange, now it's censored again

	23-06-2005 18:24									#14
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each level costs money to learn and as you go up the ladder the levels cost more and more..
they spoil their rich patrons with individual attention
any religion based on money grubbing is questionable.
puts me in the mind of those rich tv evangelists hawking for money all the time.
all of it spiritual bs designed to pick your pocket.

	23-06-2005 18:52									#15
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It is:

a religion
a sect (or did you mean cult? That, too).
definitely dangerous
should be under close observation.

But, that's true for all religions, so I'm not singling it out.

	23-06-2005 19:05									#16
	Re: Scientology - Your Opinion Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Proteus_MST As I had a discussion with some other people about scientology within another Forum, I came across the Fact, that Scientology in some countries outside of germany is either seen as harmless or even has the status of a religion (for example within the USA). Whereas in germany it is considered as rather dangerous and either a sect or a concern, whis is under close observation by the government.

Hmm, Germany has a bad track record for outlawing religions in the past, you really sure the government should be checking up on these scientologists?


I say its a proto religion and should be left alone. The only difference between cults and religions is their popularity (and I say this as a religious person). Mormans were regarded the same way as scientologists just a few years ago (and still are sometimes), and heck so were Christians.

So if they want to believe something silly and waste their money on it, why not let them? I'm sure they think other religions believe something silly and waste their money on it.

Freedom of religion is meaningless if we can pick which beliefs should be allowed and which not.

	23-06-2005 19:23									#17
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Possible penalties if you disobey the church ...

quote: code: HUBBARD COMMUNICATIONS OFFICE Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex HCO Policy Letter of 18 October 1967, Issue IV Remimeo PENALTIES FOR LOWER CONDITIONS (Applies both Orgs and Sea Org) LIABILITY Suspension of pay and a dirty grey rag on left arm and day and night confinement to org premises. TREASON Suspension of pay and deprivation of all uniforms and insignia, a black mark on left cheek and confinement on org premises or dismissal from post and debarment from premises. DOUBT Debarment from premises. Not to be employed. Payment of fine amounting to any sum may have cost org. Not to be trained or processed. Not to be communicated or argue with. ENEMY SP Order. Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed. LRH:jp L. RON HUBBARD Copyright (c) 1967 Founder by L. Ron Hubbard ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

	23-06-2005 19:28									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov a religion

Read any of the info on Clambake?

	23-06-2005 19:30									#19
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The Mormons had many questionable practices in the past, but for all I know they've mellowed out and behaved of late. The Scientologists, on the other hand, are pretty much proven to use mind-control techniques; "brainwashing" as it's usually thought of doesn't work, but they use the realistic equivalents, similar to those employed by totalitarian states. They censor and regulate the information their members receive, treat them as pariahs if they question the system in any way, and as Boann said, they charge a ridiculous and rapidly increasing amount of money for their services. Anything that charges set fees to members for advancement into the "faith" can't be a religion. Donations and honorariums to keep the organization of the ground are one thing. Scientology is a classic-style scam hiding behind the name of religion. Even if you believe that of all religions you have to admit that L. Ron Hubbard wins the prize for pure audacity.

	23-06-2005 19:39									#20
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Religious sect that should be left alone and able to do what it wants, within the law.

	23-06-2005 19:40									#21
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Even a religion that calls for 'destroying' its disloyal members?

	23-06-2005 19:41									#22
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Is it against the law? Look, I might speak out against them and my actions may be directly against Scientology's interests, but they have just as much right under the law to their religion as I do to mine.

	23-06-2005 19:46									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Read any of the info on Clambake?

Sure did, long before this thread.

I don't see what differentiates it from other religions all that much...?

	23-06-2005 19:51									#24
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Hmm, Germany has a bad track record for outlawing religions in the past, you really sure the government should be checking up on these scientologists?

Depends on which time you think.
If you think of the third Reich (where certain religions were persecuted), than itīs definitely no comparison to the germany of today.
As for today, I donīt know of any religion really outlawed.
Maybe Baghwan was outlawed during the 80s but Im not sure about it.
What weīve got is definitely some religions which count as sects and therefore were under observation from the government. For example hare Krishna.

quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I say its a proto religion and should be left alone. The only difference between cults and religions is their popularity (and I say this as a religious person). Mormans were regarded the same way as scientologists just a few years ago (and still are sometimes), and heck so were Christians. So if they want to believe something silly and waste their money on it, why not let them? I'm sure they think other religions believe something silly and waste their money on it. Freedom of religion is meaningless if we can pick which beliefs should be allowed and which not.

The Problem is not that they "just" grab the money of their members,
but that there are several reports of scientology trying to blackmail their former members and critics (often enough it are former member s which are the harshest critics of scientology).

Those people (critics and persons who broke with scientology and other people which scientology sees as dangerous) are called "suppressive persons".
And L. Ron Hubbard has made rules about dealing with these persons saying that suppressive persons are fair game and that scientology members arenīt allowed to have contact to said suppresssive persons but that all means are allowed to destroy these suppressive persons (themselves or their image in public).

For former scientology members this seems to be easy, as they are forced to regularly have some sessions where with the help of a lie detector some higher level scientology member tries to get to get hold of all inner secrets the person might have and (of course) writes all of them down for further use by scientology.

So they seem somehow more dangerous to society than just by making all of their members financially poorer.

This thread contains 2 interesting links which you should follow for further reading (and there are lots of other pages aside from those two dealing with scientology)

	23-06-2005 20:34									#25
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Why do people fall for this stupidity? And it applies to any religion...so weak...

	23-06-2005 21:12									#26
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if people in it do illegal things.. then they shuold be charged for them

and if the organisation is prone to illegal activities.. then it should be heavily watched..

JM

	23-06-2005 21:21									#27
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btw.. I think it likely that a lot of that group should go to jail on criminal charges..

which might cause the end of the group, which I THink would be beneficial

JM

	23-06-2005 21:27									#28
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Hmm, I remember reading that in previous historical periods that you could pay to become a bishop or cardinal in the Catholic church, so is this anything really new to religion?

	23-06-2005 21:30									#29
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You still pay in the mormon church...

Too bad Tass ain't around to confirm this

Scientology doesn't come knocking on my door handing out fliers and telling me I'm going to hell without doing my laundry... So, I like them better than some.

They also don't complain about Jim Crow laws or racism or well, really anything.

	23-06-2005 22:01									#30
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I agree with DanS. If members break the law, then prosecute them for that. If they aren't breaking the law, then leave them alone.