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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:36
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Ugh, never thought I'd say that, but pitchmen are our salvation - not in the spiritual sense of course. Ming, you belong to an elite group 
While communities across the globe will have to deal with preserving aspects of their unique cultures, advertisers and the producers they represent, bring the world together - the "global economy". People around the world get to see how others live and gradually people opt for lifestyles they view as better. This is what breaks down corrupt or incompetent regimes, people see others living nicer lives and want that for themselves. In their endeavor to sell, advertisers spread the message - see how we live, life can be better for you too.
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:36
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Unfortunately, advertisers can't reach all parts of the world...
For example, if a regime was suddenly to take over Siberia, most people wouldn't really know a better life, as most of them have no clue what the Internet, a newspaper, or a TV are...
On the other hand, it would be difficult if not impossible to impose the same regime on a country in North America or Europe, as the press and media all very powerful in those regions...perhaps a bit too powerful...
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Rufus T. Firefly
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is one way of saying it, though I prefer "mensch"
Sep 2000
time: 07:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
While communities across the globe will have to deal with preserving aspects of their unique cultures, advertisers and the producers they represent, bring the world together - the "global economy". People around the world get to see how others live and gradually people opt for lifestyles they view as better. This is what breaks down corrupt or incompetent regimes, people see others living nicer lives and want that for themselves. In their endeavor to sell, advertisers spread the message - see how we live, life can be better for you too. |
Of course, this is also what leads to massive waves of uncontroled migration, as people see those images, notice that the images don't correspond to their reality, and decide to move, legally or no, to the place where it does.
But not everybody moves. Plenty of people just stay at home and start racking up Western-style consumer debt in countries where the standard wage in $2/day. When those chickens come home to roost, the place explodes, and what rises from the ashes rarely looks like, say, Canada.
But those are only the ones who hear advertisers messages as intended. Luckily, there are others who can see those ads of, say, a topless Paris Hilton, for what they are: further evidence that America is the Great Satan and must be destroyed. Thanks, Madison Ave!
Still, who cares about the rest of the world? Here at home, advertising's constant exhortation to live for the day and never delay gratification, and look to material goods as a source of identity and meaningful existence, has surely had only positive effects on our society.
Yeah, 3 cheers for adverting. 
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:36
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quote:
Unfortunately, advertisers can't reach all parts of the world...
For example, if a regime was suddenly to take over Siberia, most people wouldn't really know a better life, as most of them have no clue what the Internet, a newspaper, or a TV are... |
That happened, the Commies came to power and grabbed Siberia and it was Levis and Tower Records that convinced younger people a better life could be had. Well, Siberia is a bit different, but change is coming there too.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:36
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quote:
Of course, this is also what leads to massive waves of uncontroled migration, as people see those images, notice that the images don't correspond to their reality, and decide to move, legally or no, to the place where it does. |
Voting with your feet is a bad thing?
quote:
But not everybody moves. Plenty of people just stay at home and start racking up Western-style consumer debt in countries where the standard wage in $2/day. When those chickens come home to roost, the place explodes, and what rises from the ashes rarely looks like, say, Canada. |
Canada...a country built by immigrants (illegal?) who voted with their feet and advertised for others to come. But what country exploded from consumer debt? It seems to me if people are in debt to businesses, those businesses have an incentive to create jobs to meet both the greater demand for products, but jobs for those indebted people so they can pay the debt off.
That was why Henry Ford paid really good wages for that time.
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But those are only the ones who hear advertisers messages as intended. Luckily, there are others who can see those ads of, say, a topless Paris Hilton, for what they are: further evidence that America is the Great Satan and must be destroyed. Thanks, Madison Ave! |
If we weren't over there mucking around for 50 years, we wouldn't be in this war. But if its a choice between a topless Paris Hilton and Paris Hilton in a burka awaiting her punishment for showing too much skin, we can see that the advertisers are on the correct side. That would be where advertisers break down corrupt or incompetent (and dogmatic) regimes. I think thats a good thing... Arguing that killing advertisers because you dont want other people to buy their stuff does not indicate a moral ideology... If advertising helps bring down regimes following such an immoral ideology, why is that a bad thing?
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Still, who cares about the rest of the world? |
Advertisers.
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Here at home, advertising's constant exhortation to live for the day and never delay gratification, and look to material goods as a source of identity and meaningful existence, has surely had only positive effects on our society. |
As opposed to a world without advertsing? Progress requires advertising...
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Yeah, 3 cheers for adverting. |
Hip hip hooray! 
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Rufus T. Firefly
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is one way of saying it, though I prefer "mensch"
Sep 2000
time: 07:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
First advertiser: "Hey Joe, I made a few too many spears for fishing, how about I give you them in exchange for some fish"?
Joe: "Sounds good to me"
A religion is born? |
That's not advertising. Advertising is:
First advertiser: "Hey Joe, I made a few too many spears for fishing, how about I give you them in exchange for some fish"?
Joe: "Nah, I already have a spear"
First advertiser: "But my spear will make you more attractive to women, and make the whole activity of spearing fish so exciting that you'll never stop orgasming. Plus, my spear allows you to catch fish that will give you eternal youth when eaten. And my spear, even though I'm offering it to anyone who comes along, is so perfectly suited to you in particular that your manhood and very identity will be incomplete without it."
Yeah, a religion is born -- and like voodoo, it's based on a belief in magic.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:36
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I have a question to our free-marketeers here:
Do you support the very idea of modern advertisement? ("Modern advertisement" defined as: not only making your product known, as was the case of the advertisement of old, but trying to give the impression that your product is superior through mere communication, regardless of the actual quality of the product).
I mean, a perfect free market is one where the consumers are very conscious of the utility of the products they buy, and of the price they're willing to pay for it. Free marketeers are supposed to consider price as the One Good mechanism of wealth repartition.
Modern advertisement tweaks the whole thing, as it artificially inflates the utility of some products (through any legal means, as it's heavy on psychological manipulation), which means it creates a disturbance in the utility-price mechanism.
Besides, marketing costs are a hindrance to any new actor trying to seize the market. Again, it flies in the face of the perfect free market.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:36
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quote:
First advertiser: "But my spear will make you more attractive to women, and make the whole activity of spearing fish so exciting that you'll never stop orgasming. Plus, my spear allows you to catch fish that will give you eternal youth when eaten. And my spear, even though I'm offering it to anyone who comes along, is so perfectly suited to you in particular that your manhood and very identity will be incomplete without it."
Yeah, a religion is born -- and like voodoo, it's based on a belief in magic. |
 His spear is called Viagra
You've confused two issues - I'm talking about advertising, not false advertising.
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Do you support the very idea of modern advertisement? ("Modern advertisement" defined as: not only making your product known, as was the case of the advertisement of old, but trying to give the impression that your product is superior through mere communication, regardless of the actual quality of the product). |
A thin line separates fraud and embellishment, but as a free marketeer, I'm opposed to false advertising, but our culture (every culture) understands advertising and that embellishment plays a role. We know when Burger King shows a burger on TV, that ain't the burger we're getting when we show up. But if we're satisfied anyway, we'll come back...
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I mean, a perfect free market is one where the consumers are very conscious of the utility of the products they buy, and of the price they're willing to pay for it. Free marketeers are supposed to consider price as the One Good mechanism of wealth repartition. |
A perfect free market is where you and I can exchange stuff.
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Modern advertisement tweaks the whole thing, as it artificially inflates the utility of some products (through any legal means, as it's heavy on psychological manipulation), which means it creates a disturbance in the utility-price mechanism. |
So advertise your product. A free market does not guarantee everyone will be happy with the results of every exchange they make, just they be allowed to make the exchange.
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Besides, marketing costs are a hindrance to any new actor trying to seize the market. Again, it flies in the face of the perfect free market. |
Sorry, I support a free market based on morality, not utility or your definition of perfection. 
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
A perfect free market is where you and I can exchange stuff. |
In Soviet Russia, we could have exchanged stuff too (people owned their consumer products, and I could have exchanged my clothes/food/whatever for yours if we had wished). Unless you consider Soviet Russia to be a perfect free market, I'm afraid your definition is lacking 
quote:
Sorry, I support a free market based on morality, not utility or your definition of perfection. |
"My" definition of perfection actually belongs to the liberal economic theory. The "Pure and Perfect Competition" (or at least, that's the French name for it) relies on 5 theoretical criteria:
1. many actors in the market (plenty of suppliers offering a similar product, plenty of demanders)
2. identical or equivalent quality between products
3. Free entrance on the market (anybody can become a supplier without undue hassle)
4. perfectly reliable info on the market, known by all actors (suppliers and demanders)
5. Mobility of labour and capital.
These criteria don't exist in real life, but free-marketeers strive to create them. The modern stock exchange is actually very close from being a "perfect" free market.
The "perfect" free market relies on an assumption though: the actors are rational, and they know what's best for them. They know what they want ("utility"), and they know what price they're ready to pay for it. An economist would be disgusted at the idea that his beloved free-market would favour con-men and manipulators. A free-market economist is supposed to enjoy competition about price, quality, no bullshit.
This is why most free-marketeers support institutional intervention against those who distort info btw: for example, most stock exchange authorities (even private ones) have strong mechanisms to punish the companies who lie about their profits, or who use secret info to their benefit.
Advertisement, since it is about artificially inflating the satisfaction you get from a product, goes against the "perfect information" principle. While legal advertisement is not an outright lie, it's another form of psychological manipulation in order to make the customer believe that the product is worth more than it really is. It goes against the very mechanism (price-quality) that makes the market a really free one.
I'm surprised that an idealist like you can settle with such a disruptive activity.
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:36
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quote:
In Soviet Russia, we could have exchanged stuff too (people owned their consumer products, and I could have exchanged my clothes/food/whatever for yours if we had wished). Unless you consider Soviet Russia to be a perfect free market, I'm afraid your definition is lacking |
They needed permission from a 3rd party - the Communist Party (or whatever). It aint a free market when a 3rd party who doesn't own the stuff being exchanged can deny the exchange. And that 3rd party limited what could be exchanged, so claiming a free market existed because a 3rd party let you trade your pants for food is ridiculous. I said stuff, not clothes and food. Stuff is what you own, not 1 or 2 items.
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"My" definition of perfection actually belongs to the liberal economic theory. |
Thats nice...
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I'm surprised that an idealist like you can settle with such a disruptive activity. |
Life is a disruptive activity... Losing a job making horse whips for buggies because people are buying cars is disruptive too. Apparently I'll have to repeat this since you didn't respond even after quoting it, I support a free market based on morality, not utility or your definition of perfection.
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Ming
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Advertisement, since it is about artificially inflating the satisfaction you get from a product, goes against the "perfect information" principle. While legal advertisement is not an outright lie, it's another form of psychological manipulation in order to make the customer believe that the product is worth more than it really is. It goes against the very mechanism (price-quality) that makes the market a really free one.
I'm surprised that an idealist like you can settle with such a disruptive activity. |
Yes, there are "some" advertisements that stretch the facts... but you also must remember that we can not LIE in advertising. If you make a product claim, it MUST be supported by appropriate facts to back them up.
(granted, some local ads fly beneith the radar of the governing bodies)
Many ads are informational... providing real product facts and reasons to buy. You're claim that it makes the customers believe that it is worth more than it really is a incorrect. Research has shown that ads that mislead the consumer about the value of the product are not very effective and don't help sell any more product.
You may laugh and whine about how some ads sell sex appeal... whether it's whiter teeth, deoderant, sharp clothes... but guess what... if you smell better, look better, have a better smile, you actually do have a better chance with the women...
And advertising plays hand in hand with the "free market"... It gives new comers a chance to break into a market. It allows the little guy a chance to compete against the big companies.
The first real ads were signs in front of establishments, telling people what kind of business the place was. It was informational... and that tradition continues today.
Yes, as in ALL things, there are bad or deceptive ads... but you seem to thing that that's the norm... it isn't.
Advertising is a key tool of the free market system. When done right, it is a plus to the consumer. And the good new is... when it's done wrong, the advertiser usually suffers for it.
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