24-06-2005 12:42									#1
	The borders of your empire Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

As you can see through the new IGN screenshots, the borders of your empire don't follow the strict outline of the square. It's a nifty addition as you can see with rivers forming a great natural border and to see that, graphically, the game follows these natural borders is quite impressive and welcomed.

	24-06-2005 13:00									#2
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Makes sense but that sounds a little difficult to implement in the code.

	24-06-2005 13:59									#3
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and is the terrain important when your borders spread? like, slower expansion once you reach a river or desert, even if you have enough culture. do the borders expand quicker over grassland and plains?

	24-06-2005 19:35									#4
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No, I don't think it slows the rate your borders expand. It's just a nice little visual add-on.

And to the guy who said : It would be difficult to implement - just don't make these assumptions - just look at the screens, you'll see what I'm talking 'bout.

	24-06-2005 22:47									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Cvetin and is the terrain important when your borders spread? like, slower expansion once you reach a river or desert, even if you have enough culture. do the borders expand quicker over grassland and plains?

I have seen other screenies that make me believe that civ boarders was given deeper thought and made some effective changes

JUST SHIP IT

	24-06-2005 22:58									#6
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Woah ! We are all anxious to get or hands on Civ 4 - but shipping it earlier than the planned released date would be a mistake. I don't want a half tested full of bugs and unbalanced game.

	24-06-2005 23:28									#7
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Yeah, it' better to wait they test and make sure there is no full of alive of bug!, so wait for 2,000 year before world of end. Ok?!

	24-06-2005 23:29									#8
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The advatage of CIV is that even if the game is left unbalanced, there are plenty of people here in AU who can rebalance it, due to the addition of Python and the SDK...

...although I have a feeling that they will rebalance the game anyway...

	25-06-2005 00:15									#9
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The borders lookpretty good. Actually, the whole game looks pretty good so far.

quote: Originally posted by Krill The advatage of CIV is that even if the game is left unbalanced, there are plenty of people here in AU who can rebalance it, due to the addition of Python and the SDK...

My personal hopes say, there will be little or nothing to rebalance. AU will hopefully be more about adding interesting features to the AI engine (which says nothing to me either, but I will have a clearer picture after playing the game ).

quote: Originally posted by Krill ...although I have a feeling that they will rebalance the game anyway...

Somehow, that does not surprise. But who could resist? I mean, who does not have a personal mod of Civ3 by now?

	25-06-2005 09:09									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Krill The advatage of CIV is that even if the game is left unbalanced, there are plenty of people here in AU who can rebalance it, due to the addition of Python and the SDK... ...although I have a feeling that they will rebalance the game anyway...

That makes me nervous. Rebalancing can unfortunately introduce someone else's biases into the game.

	25-06-2005 16:15									#11
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I presume borders are non-negotiable. Would be a useful addition for MP, but probably too difficult to get a sensible AI in SP?

	25-06-2005 16:35									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Niptium Woah ! We are all anxious to get or hands on Civ 4 - but shipping it earlier than the planned released date would be a mistake. I don't want a half tested full of bugs and unbalanced game.

How about a completely tested full of bugs and unbalanced game?

	25-06-2005 18:02									#13
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Always the optimist hey...

	25-06-2005 18:39									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin I presume borders are non-negotiable. Would be a useful addition for MP, but probably too difficult to get a sensible AI in SP?

What a GREAT idea!

	25-06-2005 20:28									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Makes sense but that sounds a little difficult to implement in the code.

If those rivers are vectors, (remember, is 3d now) it is not hard to implement and they have done it.

	25-06-2005 21:13									#16
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quote: Originally posted by alva Always the optimist hey...

Actually, I think that is otpimistic.

	26-06-2005 07:31									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 If those rivers are vectors, (remember, is 3d now) it is not hard to implement and they have done it.

Ahh yes. Thanks.

	26-06-2005 10:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Niptium Woah ! We are all anxious to get or hands on Civ 4 - but shipping it earlier than the planned released date would be a mistake. I don't want a half tested full of bugs and unbalanced game.

just expressing my impatience


Seeing how they have introduced new features and Ideas.

Unbugged and balanced will be done too!

quote: originally posted by Dauphin I presume borders are non-negotiable. Would be a useful addition for MP, but probably too difficult to get a sensible

	26-06-2005 10:57									#19
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Mmm, a mod for negotiable borders... as i said, if borders are just vector lines, this might be a piece of cake for a fairly experienced programmer/game programmer. But for MP games only.

You would have a special order, 'negociate border', where an interface emerges and you can move some key points to give shape the line of the border, like in a vector graphics program.

	26-06-2005 12:14									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 Mmm, a mod for negotiable borders... as i said, if borders are just vector lines, this might be a piece of cake for a fairly experienced programmer/game programmer. But for MP games only. You would have a special order, 'negociate border', where an interface emerges and you can move some key points to give shape the line of the border, like in a vector graphics program.

Or even to claim territory you have yet to occupy. I've seen that in other games (Space Empires 4 comes to mind).

	26-06-2005 13:46									#21
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That's the main one I would like. Once you've agreed who owns what land you can spread there within your own sphere. If you build a city right on the border your culture will not spread to the adjacent square if you have already agreed it belongs or will belong to someone else.

The thing about borders too, would be that different agreements with different people may lead to border disputes. e.g Player 1 and player 2 could agree to split the entire world between them, but Players 3, 4 etc will likely disagree to that.


Finally, it could be useful in a joint invasion, letting you know who will own which former territories of your enemy. If you take a city in your allies sphere it will revert to them, whilst you can have your forces there to protect it.

	26-06-2005 14:10									#22
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Perhaps we can talk them into putting that in the first expansion.

	26-06-2005 22:22									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 Perhaps we can talk them into putting that in the first expansion.

Nha, there is no AI that can handle all this stuff properly. Perhaps the 'gimme the land my forces are in' might work, though.

	26-06-2005 22:44									#24
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quote: Perhaps the 'gimme the land my forces are in' might work, though.

Actually, take what you want without asking works better .

	26-06-2005 23:08									#25
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Invading a territory should be a casus belli, not an automatic declaration of war.

Last edited by General Ludd on 27-06-2005 at 02:36

	27-06-2005 00:46									#26
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Mmm, speaking about cassus belli, how is the Bad Boy rating measured in CIV, declaring war (as i believe) or by conquering cities?

	27-06-2005 01:36									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Vince That makes me nervous. Rebalancing can unfortunately introduce someone else's biases into the game.

Yes it can. But don't forget that the game is going to be biased due to the playtesters' opinions, and Sorens' opinion is what decides what is in the game anyway.

What I am trying to say is that the game will be biased. Civ 3 was biased, Civ 2 was biased. If you don't like the bias, don't buy the game, or don't download the mod. If you don't like any rebalancing, why bother to use it? So you should not have any need, or reason, to worry about whatever rebalancing goes on in the CIV community.

	27-06-2005 01:42									#28
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd Invading a territory should be a casus bellie, not an automatic declaration of war.

If you have no ROP with my civ, and you are not there for a picnic

Please explain further

	27-06-2005 01:46									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex If you have no ROP with my civ, and you are not there for a picnic Please explain further

That he should have the option to declare war, not being an automatic DOW.

	27-06-2005 02:40									#30
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quote: Originally posted by GAZ082 That he should have the option to declare war, not being an automatic DOW.

Except the engine would need to be tracing each unit's moves very closely, so that a 2-move unit could not cross through a 1-tile patch of your land, or scout (in one move, out second move) inside your territory. I think it is far simpler, and more realistic, that entering someone's territory with military units should only be possible by and along with declaring war.