26-06-2005 21:04									#31
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yeah, they're not too good as beach balls

	27-06-2005 07:21									#32
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Well, if everyone is dead, and you pretty much represent the whole council, try to use the solar shade or something...or is it too early in the game?

	27-06-2005 21:34									#33
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too early, huge map aswell so nobody is dead ... yet

	27-06-2005 21:47									#34
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I'll use PB's and nerve-gas only in retaliation for like usage by the enemy. I've never nerve-stapled drones, likely never will.

	27-06-2005 21:49									#35
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Once you try it, you'll never go back !

	28-06-2005 00:04									#36
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That's right kids, it will addict you, so make sure never to start the habit...remember, use "positive" peer pressure on your friends...

	28-06-2005 10:58									#37
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I won't nuke until I have quantum planet busters, and only then if my enemies are being especially recalcitrant and refusing to be conquered normally. Usually they're just a deterrent, though it does look neat when they blow away an entire continent.

	28-06-2005 12:26									#38
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I'm a builder type. If I survive to the time I CAN use PB's, there is no need for me to use them

	28-06-2005 16:14									#39
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I don't recall ever doing an attrocity except for one inadvertent nerve stapling when I first got the game.

	28-06-2005 17:01									#40
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Atrocities are for using upon the deserving

	29-06-2005 00:54									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Lazerus the russians once had the schematics for a H-bomb that would have been strong enough to wipe out most of the US during the cold war didnt they ? or am i imagining again ... sure i heard something like that in a documentary see straybow, a fission PB doesn't exactly destroy that much as chaos has shown

"doesn't destroy that much"

The bomb Stalin didn't build was likely not more than 100MT. Powerful, yes, but since no subterranean facility can withstand a much smaller warhead it is a waste. Plus, it would've been too big for the bombers of the day to carry.

At the height of the Cold War we wouldn't be able to make a 1 km deep crater the equivalent of a one tile area (224k km˛ = 267 km radius) with every nuke on the planet! The K-T impactor crater is about that scale.

Maybe if you could arrange all the nukes into a perfect spherical pattern around a million gallon tritium/deuterium gas tank and detonate them simultaneously you might create a thermonuclear explosion one tenth of that scale... still not a hundredth of a PB...

	29-06-2005 01:00									#42
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If the charter was ever discarded I'd use nerve gas since I don't consider it an atrocity. (dead is dead whether by VX or funny raygun) I would also use planet busters against certain opponents or commit genocide if it was a strategic necessity. What I would never do is nerve staple. Nerve stapling is the ultimate abomination.

	29-06-2005 01:07									#43
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Managing to get a ship to alpha centauri would be a bigger challenge then making that weapon

	29-06-2005 05:33									#44
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I voted 'Buster Away' because I certainly have used atrocities amply in the past, and have no compunction about using them, but upon reflection, I really can't say I use them that often.

First of all, they're a very good way to get every faction on the board pissed off at you, unless you revoke the charter first. And if you're able to do that, odds are you don't really need to resort to such shenanigans anyway.

Second, most of them aren't that much more effective than normal 'ethical' play. Exceptions for PB's on concentrated enemy defences and gas on pesky aliens. Stapling, for example, usually doesn't wind up being THAT much more effective that using a couple of doctors, rushing a rec-commons, bringing in police, etc. And wiping out bases is just idiotic. If you're really dead-set on moving a base, having it crank out CPs faster than it can replenish pop works just fine. If you don't think you can hold the base very long, sell off the improvements and grant it to an allied or neutral faction. First, it makes them like you, second, it pisses them off at the recapturing faction.

Being a devout Morganite and unrepentant Free Marketeer, I find it's very important to keep at least some of the AI factions on your good side, the trade income is more than worth the trouble.

	29-06-2005 07:21									#45
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron I voted 'Buster Away' because I certainly have used atrocities amply in the past, and have no compunction about using them, but upon reflection, I really can't say I use them that often. First of all, they're a very good way to get every faction on the board pissed off at you, unless you revoke the charter first. And if you're able to do that, odds are you don't really need to resort to such shenanigans anyway. Second, most of them aren't that much more effective than normal 'ethical' play. Exceptions for PB's on concentrated enemy defences and gas on pesky aliens. Stapling, for example, usually doesn't wind up being THAT much more effective that using a couple of doctors, rushing a rec-commons, bringing in police, etc. And wiping out bases is just idiotic. If you're really dead-set on moving a base, having it crank out CPs faster than it can replenish pop works just fine. If you don't think you can hold the base very long, sell off the improvements and grant it to an allied or neutral faction. First, it makes them like you, second, it pisses them off at the recapturing faction. Being a devout Morganite and unrepentant Free Marketeer, I find it's very important to keep at least some of the AI factions on your good side, the trade income is more than worth the trouble.

Actually, obliterating a base is quite useful, imo. Most of the time, you don't plan on holding enemy bases in the offensive meta-game unless it has a bunch of good facilities already built; it just takes too much time to rebuild the social net and you're better off just using a few key bases as "command points." Besides, conquering one or two civs tends to add quite a bit of drones to your colonies.

And I think I posted something else about obliterating bases with key SPs that the enemy was in danger of getting (whether it was you or another faction that had it); it's better to just take the trade hit than to see them get the SP.

	29-06-2005 11:29									#46
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quote: Originally posted by cal_01 Actually, obliterating a base is quite useful, imo. Most of the time, you don't plan on holding enemy bases in the offensive meta-game unless it has a bunch of good facilities already built; it just takes too much time to rebuild the social net and you're better off just using a few key bases as "command points."

"Social net"?

It doesn't take much time to build if you have plenty of cash, which is pretty much par for the course in the "defensive meta-game".

My biggest problem is remembering that I need to "spend the money", since it's the only reason why I took the major military hit.

	29-06-2005 13:17									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Lazerus Managing to get a ship to alpha centauri would be a bigger challenge then making that weapon

No, at lower energy levels the PB can't be made, period. At lower energy levels the trip to AC takes centuries instead of decades.

	30-06-2005 05:29									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Tommar "Social net"? It doesn't take much time to build if you have plenty of cash, which is pretty much par for the course in the "defensive meta-game". My biggest problem is remembering that I need to "spend the money", since it's the only reason why I took the major military hit.

Social net as in the facilities of a base. I think that's what the game calls them when you capture a base?

	30-06-2005 17:21									#49
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No, when conquering a base some energy is allocated from the net.

	01-07-2005 06:09									#50
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Really. I always thought that it was from the destruction of facilities due to a capture, since some bases would have an odd assortment of facilities built.

	01-07-2005 06:41									#51
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Facilities tend to be destroyed when you conquer a city with force. I think the number destroyed depends on how long the battle has been raging, but I'm not sure how.

	01-07-2005 07:59									#52
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Weird. I thought the mechanic was similar to the Civ2 one.

Then again, did Civ2 even have that feature? Or was it just my imagination?

	01-07-2005 16:58									#53
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I remember a game where Hive (AI) nuked a Miriam's base called 'Gift from God'...

Anyway, as to atrocities:

- nerve stapling - only prior to the first contact. NEVER after that, it's just not worth the commerce hit.

- nerve gas - only against aliens. I like to have Submissive Pacts too much.

- obliteration - only in PBEMs at special occasions. Otherwise it's better either to assimilate a base in question into your empire or give it to your AI Pact brother.

- PBs - never used it, but sure as hell would use it in PBEM if need arrives.

	02-07-2005 15:36									#54
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quote: No, at lower energy levels the PB can't be made, period. At lower energy levels the trip to AC takes centuries instead of decades.

But it didn't take centuries

	03-07-2005 04:32									#55
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That's because there was a rift in the fabric of the genre, causing a Star Trek© (Sub)Space Anomaly™ to extend into the Sidiverse, allowing the primitive rocket to traverse 4˝ light years in a few decades instead.

	03-07-2005 05:39									#56
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Ok, why is nerve stapling more despicable than nerve gas or PB's? Sure, nerve stapling is used against your own people. I can see that.

If they are rioting, there is the possibility they can destroy valuable base facilities or even take over the base and join the Free Drones. Simply put, they are the worst kind of threat to your faction...an internal one. And if they were loyal citizens of your faction then they wouldn't be rioting in the first place, hence the absence of nerve stapling.

Besides, they're only Drones and Genejacks.

	03-07-2005 14:54									#57
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron I voted 'Buster Away' because I certainly have used atrocities amply in the past, and have no compunction about using them, but upon reflection, I really can't say I use them that often. First of all, they're a very good way to get every faction on the board pissed off at you, unless you revoke the charter first. And if you're able to do that, odds are you don't really need to resort to such shenanigans anyway. Second, most of them aren't that much more effective than normal 'ethical' play. Exceptions for PB's on concentrated enemy defences and gas on pesky aliens. Stapling, for example, usually doesn't wind up being THAT much more effective that using a couple of doctors, rushing a rec-commons, bringing in police, etc. And wiping out bases is just idiotic. If you're really dead-set on moving a base, having it crank out CPs faster than it can replenish pop works just fine. If you don't think you can hold the base very long, sell off the improvements and grant it to an allied or neutral faction. First, it makes them like you, second, it pisses them off at the recapturing faction. Being a devout Morganite and unrepentant Free Marketeer, I find it's very important to keep at least some of the AI factions on your good side, the trade income is more than worth the trouble.

And I tip my hat to the CEO. Even though we're practically polar opposites, I can respect one that is loyal to one faction. It's hard to find players that usually stick to one faction these days...or at least can identify with one particular faction anyway.

	03-07-2005 14:59									#58
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quote: That's because there was a rift in the fabric of the genre, causing a Star Trek© (Sub)Space Anomaly™ to extend into the Sidiverse, allowing the primitive rocket to traverse 4˝ light years in a few decades instead.

Not everything has been discovered and not all theories survive through the ages. Don't discount so easily a new method arising in a few hundred years time.

	04-07-2005 08:05									#59
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Perhaps, but in the meantime, where are the ordinary nukes that wipe out units and devastate cities without leaving a crater visible from orbit?

"Oh, that... we forgot."

	04-07-2005 16:44									#60
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Well, orbital spaceflight must be re-invented and infrastructured again, remember?