24-06-2005 20:03									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yeh, well. I'm not muslim and it's just an ordinary book to me.

I'm not Christian or Muslim and I think they are both holy books.

And I respect other peoples beliefs (if they aren't infringing on my freedom)

	24-06-2005 20:04									#32
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Me, I'd swear on whatever the jurors thought was Holy.

Only if I'm the defendant.

	24-06-2005 20:04									#33
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Me, I'd swear on whatever the jurors thought was Holy.

Here, when I was a juror, we had to swear to hear the evidence fairly or whatever and we could choose what book to swear on too.

	24-06-2005 20:05									#34
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I respect others' belief, but I don't share it.

quote: I'm not Christian or Muslim and I think they are both holy books.

We're talking North Carolina here. The vast majority are christians. See JohnT's point.

	24-06-2005 20:05									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's also to reinforce to the public the seriousness of what is about to be testified. If somebody swears on the Koran, that means nothing to me as a christian.

That's a rather unfair view. If a Muslim swears on the Koran, which HE views to be holy, how does that in any way diminish this seriousness? Considering the stink made over the Koran defiling in Gitmo, I'd give it at least as much weight as a Christian swearing on the Bible (and yes, when I see a Christian swearing on the Bible, it does mean something to me, in terms of his pledge to tell the truth).

Of course, all that is me giving the benefit of the doubt that the particular Muslims/Christians involved are, in fact, honest in their devotion.

	24-06-2005 20:08									#36
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I respect others' belief, but I don't share it.

Pardon me if I don't find it very respectful when one says that they find a Muslim swearing on a book he believes to be sacred "meaningless."

	24-06-2005 20:08									#37
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quote: That's a rather unfair view. If a Muslim swears on the Koran, which HE views to be holy, how does that in any way diminish this seriousness?

Because I as a juror can't fully participate in that ritual if I also don't take the Koran seriously. It would be about like a protestant going to mass, but not being able to take communion.

To reiterate, I think everybody should go to affirmations and that the complaint was valid.

	24-06-2005 20:08									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil Bright radio personalities they are. May I suggest a new station?

Bright, whose to say? Johnboy and Billy are certainly very, very, popular with a huge marketshare. In any case I was just interested in just how damn-hot it will be here today.

Their response was a surprise to me. Not that I thought they were liberals in any way, but simply that it makes more sense for a moslem to take an oath on the Koran than the Bible.

They also mentioned the christian not swearing on the Bible thing too - which I had not heard of previously.

	24-06-2005 20:10									#39
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A muslim swearing on the bible would make me think he's as serious as DanS swearing on the Koran.

	24-06-2005 20:13									#40
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Islam should be kept as far away from our legal system as possible.

	24-06-2005 20:13									#41
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I think they were being vague as to "holy scripture" in order to accomodate Jews.

	24-06-2005 20:14									#42
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I would think a moslem taking an oath on the Bible would have slightly more weight than a christian taking an oath on the Koran since Christ is a prophet to moslems but not vice versa.

	24-06-2005 20:18									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Because I as a juror can't fully participate in that ritual if I also don't take the Koran seriously. It would be about like a protestant going to mass, but not being able to take communion.

But would you view the Muslim swearing on the Bible any more seriously?

	24-06-2005 20:20									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I respect others' belief, but I don't share it. We're talking North Carolina here. The vast majority are christians. See JohnT's point.

Don't assume that just because they are Christians that they are ignorant bigots though.

Some Christians are very nice tolerant people.

	24-06-2005 20:23									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov But would you view the Muslim swearing on the Bible any more seriously?

I don't know how I would view it. Probably as a bastard oath.

	24-06-2005 20:25									#46
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Johnboy and Billy are certainly very, very, popular with a huge marketshare...

'Nuff said.

	24-06-2005 20:25									#47
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I don't know how I would view it. Probably as a bastard oath.

So a Muslim swearing on the Koran is meaningless to you, swearing on the Bible is a bastard oath...

Seems like your problem is more with Muslims than whatever it is they're using for the oath.

	24-06-2005 20:25									#48
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That's ridiculous. Would you expect a muslim to consider your swearing on the bible as a bastard oath?

	24-06-2005 20:34									#49
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quote: Would you expect a muslim to consider your swearing on the bible as a bastard oath?

Why would they? The Bible is holy scriptures to me. But the fact that they are muslim makes the oath lose power.

In other words, most everybody has to be christian in society in order for an oath on the Bible to have its intended ritual impact. Once not everybody is christian, it starts to look like state establishment of religion, and is unconstitutional.

	24-06-2005 20:36									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's also to reinforce to the public the seriousness of what is about to be testified. If somebody swears on the Koran, that means nothing to me as a christian.

And what makes your made-up god better than their made-up god?

	24-06-2005 20:40									#51
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat 5-15 year range of sentences for perjury ought to make that point more effectively. Especially given the Christian view that virtually all sin is forgiveable, the state's penalties are a bit more hard-nosed than God's.

But, er, not everyone gets caught for perjury, but they MIGHT think god sees everything.

and at least in MY religion you cant just sin and think "I wont get punished, I'll just say hail mary and it wont count" I will have to let christians and others answer for their religions.

	24-06-2005 20:41									#52
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's also to reinforce to the public the seriousness of what is about to be testified. If somebody swears on the Koran, that means nothing to me as a christian.

with all due respect I disagree. I dont see why the public needs that. When the US judicial system was evolving how much of the "public" attended a trial? Other than lawyers, interested parties, etc?

	24-06-2005 20:44									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Because I as a juror can't fully participate in that ritual if I also don't take the Koran seriously. It would be about like a protestant going to mass, but not being able to take communion. .

I cant participate in the ritual when someone swears on a bible that includes the NT. Not at all. Like we're talking major issues here. Yet I still the seriousness, as Boris does.

	24-06-2005 20:45									#54
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling And what makes your made-up god better than their made-up god?

Nothing. Just that I don't share a belief in god as they view him. I'm not denigrating their belief, just making clear that I don't share their belief. We should have an oath on a belief that everybody shares.

	24-06-2005 20:46									#55
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark with all due respect I disagree. I dont see why the public needs that. When the US judicial system was evolving how much of the "public" attended a trial? Other than lawyers, interested parties, etc?

It's a public event though. Not a private event. You are swearing before the public and god that you will tell the truth.

	24-06-2005 20:47									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I think they were being vague as to "holy scripture" in order to accomodate Jews.

they could have just said "a bible". AFAIK no Christian upon seeing a Jewish text of the Hebrew scriptures would deny that its "the bible" despite it not including the NT. Am I incorrect?

	24-06-2005 20:49									#57
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Don't assume that just because they are Christians that they are ignorant bigots though. Some Christians are very nice tolerant people.

Stop being so damn PC...religion is a grown up fairy tale...

	24-06-2005 20:50									#58
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I cant participate in the ritual when someone swears on a bible that includes the NT. Not at all.

I agree. Just that no Jews that I know of have made a stink about it.

	24-06-2005 20:51									#59
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I think they were being vague as to "holy scripture" in order to accomodate Jews.

So Judaism is fine but Islam is not? At least I despise all religions but you are just being a bit of a bigot!

quote: Why would they? The Bible is holy scriptures to me. But the fact that they are muslim makes the oath lose power. In other words, most everybody has to be christian in society in order for an oath on the Bible to have its intended ritual impact. Once not everybody is christian, it starts to look like state establishment of religion, and is unconstitutional.

What if they find it offensive to have to swear on the bible? Why do you insist that tyranny of the majority without minority rights is perfectly acceptable?

	24-06-2005 20:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Of course, all that is me giving the benefit of the doubt that the particular Muslims/Christians involved are, in fact, honest in their devotion.

Giving the benefit of the doubt that people are honest in their devotion does not require an oath on an Holly Book, and is in any case of no use in a court which is not the Inquisition.