24-06-2005 20:54									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I agree. Just that no Jews that I know of have made a stink about it.

I wouldnt make a stink, precisely because its my understanding that the book is supposed to be holy to the witness swearing on it, NOT to the jury or the general public.

	24-06-2005 20:54									#62
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quote: What if they find it offensive to have to swear on the bible?

You dumb fvck. Read what I posted. I said that they shouldn't swear on the bible. Nobody should.

	24-06-2005 20:56									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's also to reinforce to the public the seriousness of what is about to be testified. If somebody swears on the Koran, that means nothing to me as a christian.

To me as an atheist, you swearing on the Bible means nothing to me because I view your holy book as varying degrees of myths, morals, and poor translation. But I know what the ceremony means to you as a way of enforcing your trust. It's at least as useful in making sure you tell the truth as making you affirm or swear on any other book or making you give a boy scouts oath, from my point of view.

A muslim swearing on the Koran isn't any different from a Christian swearing on the Bible or a Jew on the Torah.

	24-06-2005 20:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I respect others' belief, but I don't share it. We're talking North Carolina here. The vast majority are christians. See JohnT's point.

T'was Boris' point. Your post needs a little of that DanS magic applied to it.

	24-06-2005 20:59									#65
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quote: To me as an atheist, you swearing on the Bible means nothing to me because I view your holy book as varying degrees of myths, morals, and poor translation. But I know what the ceremony means to you as a way of enforcing your trust. It's at least as useful in making sure you tell the truth as making you affirm or swear on any other book or making you give a boy scouts oath, from my point of view.

Swearing an oath is a public ritual. You can't be a neutral observer in this; rather you are a participant. If somebody swears on the Koran, then I cannot fully participate in that ritual and hence it loses power.

	24-06-2005 20:59									#66
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Are Christians allowed to swear on bibles in Islamic countries? Last I checked, Christians aren't even allowed to practice openly. I don't think swearing on the bible violates the freedom of conscience of anyone, since everyone, regardless off their religious affiliation has to swear on one. Atheists, and skeptics included.

	24-06-2005 21:03									#67
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In 1990, appx. 13,000 Muslims were living in North Carolina:

http://www.jannah.org/popstatistics/usamuslims.html

I do not stand by the accuracy of the data, but that's what I got, so...

	24-06-2005 21:03									#68
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT T'was Boris' point. Your post needs a little of that DanS magic applied to it.

No, actually it was your point, although perhaps inadvertent. You said that you would swear on whatever scripture the jurors believe in, not what you believe in.

	24-06-2005 21:05									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Swearing an oath is a public ritual. You can't be a neutral observer in this; rather you are a participant. If somebody swears on the Koran, then I cannot fully participate in that ritual and hence it loses power.

You could be a disinterested observer.

While I agree with you that it should be affirmations only, I really don't understand why the person making the oath has to conform to your standards to make their oath have merit.

	24-06-2005 21:06									#70
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Ahhh. Now I get it.

Next time, don't be so damnably oblique!

	24-06-2005 21:09									#71
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quote: Once not everybody is christian, it starts to look like state establishment of religion, and is unconstitutional.

You sure about that, DanS? First of all, this argument doesn't violate the establishment clause since the state is not endorsing a religious group. If they made everyone attend a Catholic service, or they gave special benefits to Catholicism, that others did not receive, then it would trigger the clause. However, endorsing Christian groups does not violate the clause. Given the responses in this thread, it seems that it's hardly an endorsement of the bible, if everyone is allowed to swear on one, regardless of what one believes.

Secondly, how does swearing an oath on a bible violate the conscience rights of an atheist? If one is to be consistant, they would have to swear on nothing.

Thirdly, there are some Christians who have a problem with swearing any oath whatsoever to the state, for the explicit reason that they are to let their yes be yes and their no, no. Mennonites are among that group, and this is one reason why they tend to avoid the judicial system if at all possible.

	24-06-2005 21:12									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Swearing an oath is a public ritual. You can't be a neutral observer in this; rather you are a participant. If somebody swears on the Koran, then I cannot fully participate in that ritual and hence it loses power.

But I'm not a neutral observer. I participate in the fact that I know a religious person swearing on something they consider holy is meaningful to them, whether it be a Christian on a Bible or a Muslim on a Koran. It's the fact that I know they consider it meaningful is what allows me to consider their words more trustworthy, even if I don't even believe that those books are holy.

And Ben, we're not talking about Christians in Islamic countries (of which the infringments on freedom are documented and I'd widely condemn if we ever talked about it). We're dealing with Muslims in a country that's supposed to have seperation of Church and State. Swearing on the Bible only has meaning to me if you're a Christian doing it. If I swore on the Bible, I wouldn't feel bound to tell the truth because of that act. I'm bound to tell the truth because...I dunno, service to Society. The Greater Good. The threat of Perjury.

	24-06-2005 21:12									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Theben You could be a disinterested observer. While I agree with you that it should be affirmations only, I really don't understand why the person making the oath has to conform to your standards to make their oath have merit.

If you are a citizen of the United States, then you cannot be a disinterested observer in any case happening in North Carolina. You're fully invested in our judicial system.

	24-06-2005 21:12									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Are Christians allowed to swear on bibles in Islamic countries? Last I checked, Christians aren't even allowed to practice openly. I don't think swearing on the bible violates the freedom of conscience of anyone, since everyone, regardless off their religious affiliation has to swear on one. Atheists, and skeptics included.

Whatever commands the judiciary system of islamic countries does not prevent the US to adopt oaths which are not offending the religious beliefs of minorities. It is not true that atheists and skeptics have to swear on a book, they are authorise to limit themselves to an affirmation (*serment sur l'honneur*)

	24-06-2005 21:16									#75
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quote: But I'm not a neutral observer. I participate in the fact that I know a religious person swearing on something they consider holy is meaningful to them, whether it be a Christian on a Bible or a Muslim on a Koran. It's the fact that I know they consider it meaningful is what allows me to consider their words more trustworthy, even if I don't even believe that those books are holy.

I think this view has some merit, but let's face facts. Swearing on a koran might mean something different than swearing on a Bible or swearing on a portrait of Vishnu or whatever. Since I am not a full participant in the ritual, I cannot know the full import of their oath.

	24-06-2005 21:16									#76
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quote: I wouldn't feel bound to tell the truth because of that act. I'm bound to tell the truth because...I dunno, service to Society. The Greater Good. The threat of Perjury.

If Christians are required to make an oath, and atheists are not, then you are holding the Christians to a higher standard. If all that is required, is a simple declaration that your word ought to be enough, then there isn't much need for folks to swear by anything, now is there?

	24-06-2005 21:17									#77
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In California, there's no holy book involved. You simply raise your right hand (if any) and swear to tell the truth, so help you God. -- Or, you can affirm.

But for those places which use a holy book, I'd say the Koran has to qualify.

	24-06-2005 21:19									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Swearing an oath is a public ritual. You can't be a neutral observer in this; rather you are a participant. If somebody swears on the Koran, then I cannot fully participate in that ritual and hence it loses power.

What an incredibly odd point of view. It seems rather obvious to me that the whole point of swearing on a Bible is ensure that you tell the truth because you personally have sworn to your God that you won't be lying.

	24-06-2005 21:20									#79
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quote: Whatever commands the judiciary system of islamic countries does not prevent the US to adopt oaths which are not offending the religious beliefs of minorities.

When a muslim wishes to change the judicial system of the United States, I don't take much stock in it, since we see how their justice works back home. Up in Canada, Muslims are now insisting that they be granted specific rights to appear before a Muslim court rather than a secular one, yet to have the force of the secular courts behind the Muslim ones, in order to enforce the decisions.

So the folks defending the separation of the church and state, are not going to find much in common with the Muslim concepts of either the state or the courts.

quote: It is not true that atheists and skeptics have to swear on a book, they are authorise to limit themselves to an affirmation (*serment sur l'honneur*)

Interesting. Are Christians also permitted to avoid making an oath?

	24-06-2005 21:21									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Are Christians allowed to swear on bibles in Islamic countries? Last I checked, Christians aren't even allowed to practice openly.

An amazing red herring.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I don't think swearing on the bible violates the freedom of conscience of anyone

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi since everyone, regardless off their religious affiliation has to swear on one. Atheists, and skeptics included.

Nope.

The strange thing to me is that I would have thought that christians would not want non-christians to swear an oath on the Bible since it demeans the act and the religion.

	24-06-2005 21:21									#81
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Ahhh. Now I get it. Next time, don't be so damnably oblique!

I just thought you were doing a Dinodoc, where one sentence of busting somebody's balls makes clear that you know all of arguments involved, but are laying low to see if anybody actually makes some interesting points.

	24-06-2005 21:22									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison At least I despise all religions but you are just being a bit of a bigot!

Hello, Mr. Pot! You see Mr. Kettle over there? You are both black.

	24-06-2005 21:23									#83
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That has to be the most apt crosspost in which I have ever participated.

	24-06-2005 21:24									#84
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Spencer:

What I find it funny that the folks who value the separation of the church and state, are siding with the Muslims who want to infuse the act of swearing in an oath with much more religious significance than previous.

quote: The strange thing to me is that I would have thought that christians would not want non-christians to swear an oath on the Bible since it demeans the act and the religion.

Some Christians, myself included, believe that you shouldn't be swearing oaths on the bible at all. So the act, in itself, has very little religious significance.

	24-06-2005 21:29									#85
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Alternatively to books they should allow to swear on Poly threads

	24-06-2005 21:29									#86
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I think this view has some merit, but let's face facts. Swearing on a koran might mean something different than swearing on a Bible or swearing on a portrait of Vishnu or whatever. Since I am not a full participant in the ritual, I cannot know the full import of their oath.

Facts? I see no objective, independent and reproducible data here.

I'm really just trying to get into your head and figure out the reasoning because, from where I stand on the spiritual rainbow, it's a bit like watching someone argue that violet is not purple.

To be fair, I've been to Catholic masses and, while I don't fully understand what's happening, I can see that some people are getting a lot out of it. Likewise, a person watching me read some Bertrand Russell wouldn't know what's going through my head but they should see that I'm getting something from the experience.

Ultimately, I'll never know what goes through your head when you swear on a Bible or what goes through a Muslim's head when he swears on a Koran. Hell, I can't even know what would go through a fellow atheist's head when he affirms his intentions to tell the truth.

You're never a full participant in any ritual because, though you may have similar experiences, you'll never exactly know what the other person is feeling. Most of the time, you just have to work under the benefit of the doubt that they're experiences are roughly anagolous to yours, which is what I do when I see religious people swear on their holy books.

And Ben, I'm more than happy for atheists to swear to tell the truth. Just not to any god because I wouldn't see that as meaningful to them. By far the best system is the Californian one, where the holy books are taken out and a person swears or affirms depending on what they see as appropriate.

	24-06-2005 21:31									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That has to be the most apt crosspost in which I have ever participated.

All the interesting points have been made. Don't really see why it's an issue myself. If a Muslim wants to swear on the Koran rather than the Bible in a State where the Bible is used for oaths, he should be allowed to do so. Ignorant protests that it is a "piece of doggerel" or not "holy scripture" are irrelevent to the point. Besides PH deserved it.

	24-06-2005 21:33									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Spencer: What I find it funny that the folks who value the separation of the church and state, are siding with the Muslims who want to infuse the act of swearing in an oath with much more religious significance than previous.

Well the point is that swearing an oath should be viewed as a serious act by the oath taker. If one is religious then swearing by those beliefs would have to be construed as the most serious of oaths. While the best alternative from a "seperation of church and state perspective" is to use a secular oath, some individuals may indeed feel more bound by a religious oath.

quote: Some Christians, myself included, believe that you shouldn't be swearing oaths on the bible at all. So the act, in itself, has very little religious significance.

Yes, an interesting viewpoint. One that makes sense to me.

	24-06-2005 21:39									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi When a muslim wishes to change the judicial system of the United States, I don't take much stock in it, since we see how their justice works back home.

Do you wish to qualify this statement so as to not come across as a bigot?

	24-06-2005 21:44									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DanS If you are a citizen of the United States, then you cannot be a disinterested observer in any case happening in North Carolina. You're fully invested in our judicial system.

as a citizen of the ancient and soveriegn Commonwealth of Virginia, I must contest that remark.