24-06-2005 18:06									#1
	Islamic Group Calls for Use of Koran to Take Oath Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

CNSNews.com) - An Islamic civil rights and advocacy group is calling on North Carolina judges to allow people to use the Koran when taking an oath, saying the use of the Bible exclusively represents "an inappropriate state endorsement of religion."

The request by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) comes after Guilford County judges said they would not allow use of Korans in their courtrooms.

"An oath of the Koran is not a lawful oath under our law," said W. Douglas Albright, Guilford's senior resident Superior Court judge. According to state law, swearing an oath constitutes putting one's hand on the "Holy Scriptures."

Those who do not wish to take an oath using the Bible may make an "affirmation."

"By stating that only one book qualifies as 'Holy Scriptures,' the court may be making an inappropriate endorsement of a single set of religious beliefs," said CAIR Legal Director Arsalan Iftikhar.

"Eliminating the opportunity to swear an oath on one's own holy text may also have the effect of diminishing the credibility of that person's testimony," Iftikhar added.

North Carolina's Administrative Office of the Courts last week issued a preliminary opinion saying that state law allows people to be sworn in using a Koran rather than a Bible, CAIR noted.

According to Iftikhar, CAIR will offer a free copy of the Koran to any judge in North Carolina or nationwide for use in oaths or "for personal awareness of the holy text."

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewsto...L20050621c.html

I heard about this while driving in to work and thought it might make for some interesting discussion. The radio personalities thought that the idea was of someone taking an oath on the Koran instead of the Bible was ridiculous, that it was just a publicity stunt.

So how do y'all feel about it? Will this become another PC appeasement of the moslems or do they have a point? What about seperation of church and state? This is one area that clearly fits the bill (for me).

	24-06-2005 18:14									#2
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I have already suggested that the choice between an oath on the Bible and an affirmation was creating a potential discrimination since the judge was christian or atheist but cannot be both.

	24-06-2005 18:19									#3
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It is a legitimate complaint. People should have the right to swear on any holy book they do so desire, or none if they don't believe... It should be a non issue, but I'm sure the fundies will be all over this... sigh...

	24-06-2005 18:23									#4
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It is legitimate only if you think that the judge will not be influenced by the religion you have. On the contrary, no holy book is acceptable.

	24-06-2005 18:24									#5
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In the UK you can choose what book to swear on or you can affirm.

	24-06-2005 18:25									#6
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH The radio personalities thought that the idea was of someone taking an oath on the Koran instead of the Bible was ridiculous, that it was just a publicity stunt.

Bright radio personalities they are.

May I suggest a new station?

	24-06-2005 18:26									#7
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The concept of swearing on some book is meant to ensure that the person is telling the truth... It's kind of joke to think that somebody who doesn't believe in the bible will be more truthful because they have been asked to swear on it...

Frankly, it's all a crock anyway... but if they are going to continue the practice of having people swear in on the bible... they should allow people to choose the book most meaningful for them.... and non religious people should not be asked to do so....

	24-06-2005 18:27									#8
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Yeah, that's what we have here (and why). It seems like common sense which probably means it won't happen.

	24-06-2005 18:29									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Ming It is a legitimate complaint. People should have the right to swear on any holy book they do so desire, or none if they don't believe... It should be a non issue, but I'm sure the fundies will be all over this... sigh...

Superb post.

I agree 150%...

	24-06-2005 18:52									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The concept of swearing on some book is meant to ensure that the person is telling the truth... It's kind of joke to think that somebody who doesn't believe in the bible will be more truthful because they have been asked to swear on it...

	24-06-2005 18:55									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Frankly, it's all a crock anyway... but if they are going to continue the practice of having people swear in on the bible... they should allow people to choose the book most meaningful for them.... and non religious people should not be asked to do so....

May I swear on HHGTTG?

	24-06-2005 18:55									#12
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If you unscramble the abbreviation, you may!

	24-06-2005 18:59									#13
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I'd rather give up swearing on the Bible than allow people to swear on that piece of doggerel.

	24-06-2005 19:00									#14
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I prefer to swear 'at' the bible...Or any other holy cookbook for that matter.

	24-06-2005 19:06									#15
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I'd rather give up swearing on the Bible than allow people to swear on that piece of doggerel.

This demonstrates the considerable power of my Holy Book.

	24-06-2005 19:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ming It is a legitimate complaint. People should have the right to swear on any holy book they do so desire, or none if they don't believe... It should be a non issue, but I'm sure the fundies will be all over this... sigh...

There is no reason to deny them this
(although I´m sure, christian fundamentalists will bring in a lot of reasons why they think it shouldn´t be allowed )

	24-06-2005 19:21									#17
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As far as I'm concerned the Koran is not holy scripture. Just because some may think it is, doesn't make it so. And muslims are pretty extreme minorities in the US...

That said, it's a legitimate complaint that this is state establishment of my view of religion, which is unconstitutional. So everybody must do the affirmation and religion must be dereferenced in the oath.

	24-06-2005 19:27									#18
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I can't believe I am going to say this, but maybe we should get rid of swearing on the Bible completely and just use affirmation for everybody.

First, as a Christian, I don't believe that swearing on the Bible is appropriate because Jesus said that we should not swear on anything. Second, if we use affirmation for everybody then there won't be any religious discrimination since nobody will have preference over another.

	24-06-2005 19:27									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The concept of swearing on some book is meant to ensure that the person is telling the truth... It's kind of joke to think that somebody who doesn't believe in the bible will be more truthful because they have been asked to swear on it...

QFT

The whole point is to reinforce the seriousness of telling the truth to the WITNESS. Whatever book serves that purpose fir that witness is the right one to use, whether everyone else thinks of it as holy or not.

	24-06-2005 19:27									#20
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"As far as I'm concerned the Koran is not holy scripture."

That's a bizarre statement. Why not?

It's the official holy book of Islam - FACT!

	24-06-2005 19:35									#21
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat maybe we should get rid of swearing on the Bible completely and just use affirmation for everybody.

But it would be fun to see the response if someone wanted to swear on "Mein Kampf"

	24-06-2005 19:38									#22
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It's parity - sounds fair enough to me...

	24-06-2005 19:55									#23
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT It is legitimate only if you think that the judge will not be influenced by the religion you have. On the contrary, no holy book is acceptable.

The judge is generally (except in bench trials, which are defendant's choice or not) only the trier of law, not of fact, and as such, the judge's rulings of law are appealable.

The holy book thing is traditional from way prior to the US, but really isn't necessary, because the penalties one needs to concern oneself with are here in this world, rather than in the next.

	24-06-2005 19:55									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH "As far as I'm concerned the Koran is not holy scripture." That's a bizarre statement. Why not? It's the official holy book of Islam - FACT!

Yeh, well. I'm not muslim and it's just an ordinary book to me.

	24-06-2005 19:56									#25
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark QFT The whole point is to reinforce the seriousness of telling the truth to the WITNESS. Whatever book serves that purpose fir that witness is the right one to use, whether everyone else thinks of it as holy or not.

5-15 year range of sentences for perjury ought to make that point more effectively. Especially given the Christian view that virtually all sin is forgiveable, the state's penalties are a bit more hard-nosed than God's.

	24-06-2005 19:58									#26
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The whole point is to reinforce the seriousness of telling the truth to the WITNESS.

It's also to reinforce to the public the seriousness of what is about to be testified. If somebody swears on the Koran, that means nothing to me as a christian.

	24-06-2005 20:00									#27
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Me, I'd swear on whatever the jurors thought was Holy.

	24-06-2005 20:01									#28
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Yep, the muslims are right here. Though I have to wonder if this complaint has any bearing on reality (as in an actual muslim official being denied the right to swear on the Koran). Considering it's NC, I doubt it...

	24-06-2005 20:02									#29
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yeh, well. I'm not muslim and it's just an ordinary book to me.

They're all just old texts from history (and should be confined to!) for me...again, this does stink of pure Christian righteous arrogance...

Getting me to swear on a holy book is utterly meaningless to me anyway...it's just words and paper (of the toilet variety) to me

	24-06-2005 20:02									#30
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Since the law clearly states "holy scripture" and not "bible" I don't see why it's even an issue... but they should get rid of both and switch to affirmations only.