24-06-2005 21:59									#1
	Tom Cruise, psychiatry, Matt Drudge, etc. Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Here's an interesting back-and-forth between Tom Cruise and Matt Lauer on the Today Show.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3tc.htm

In short, even though I disagree with all of the scientology hocus pocus, I agree with Tom Cruise's dim view of psychiatry. It appears to me that it is a very immature science to put it in a charitable way and the brain is a black box that we don't know too much about.

Now don't get me wrong. In some cases, specific drugs can be helpful. I've known people who have taken lithium for being manic depressive and it has worked well, although the side effects are pretty bad. But in general, it seems that psychiatry is in the dark ages. I've known several people where it seems like the psychiatrist doesn't know what's going on at all and is just trying stuff (incredibly strong drugs) out randomly. It's almost the doctors of yesteryear using leeches.

There is some of this with traditional medicine. Doctors have a good idea about many illnesses, but they don't seem to understand some chronic illnesses that much. Perhaps those illnesses are more psychological than anything.

So what's your view?

Please note that I don't know why Tom Cruise is talking about this publicly. He's no expert on the matter and comes off pretty callously with regard to Brooke Shields and post-partum depression.

Last edited by DanS on 24-06-2005 at 22:05

	24-06-2005 22:12									#2
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I agree with your view. Call me prejudiced but I think psychiatry often results in people getting completely absorbed in their illness rather than "healing" them. And I don't like drugs at all.

	24-06-2005 22:13									#3
	Re: Tom Cruise, psychiatry, Matt Drudge, etc. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DanS Here's an interesting back-and-forth between Tom Cruise and Matt Lauer on the Today Show. http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3tc.htm In short, even though I disagree with all of the scientology hocus pocus, I agree with Tom Cruise's dim view of psychiatry. It appears to me that it is a very immature science to put it in a charitable way and the brain is a black box that we don't know too much about. Now don't get me wrong. In some cases, specific drugs can be helpful. I've known people who have taken lithium for being manic depressive and it has worked well, although the side effects are pretty bad. But in general, it seems that psychiatry is in the dark ages. I've known several people where it seems like the psychiatrist doesn't know what's going on at all and is just trying stuff (incredibly strong drugs) out randomly. It's almost the doctors of yesteryear using leeches. There is some of this with traditional medicine. Doctors have a good idea about many illnesses, but they don't seem to understand some chronic illnesses that much. Perhaps those illnesses are more psychological than anything. So what's your view?

We actually have a much better idea about the role of brain chemistry in mood disorders than we did when Lithium was first used - however docs still dont have the ability to diagnose based on brain chemistry, or to select medications based on brain chemistry. Though theres a lot of research trying to go in that direction, IIUC. In any case its always going to be an art - mental health in general and mood disorders in particular have so many aspects that go beyond brain chemistry, into thought patterns, life patterns etc. I think good psychiatry will always be an "art"

But then im not sure a lot of the rest of medicine shouldnt be like that as well - fitting treatments into the patients personality and lifestyle, and using treatments other than medication.


For some thoughts on medicine as art, vs tradititional views of drugs, and the integration of organic brain conditions with the whole personality, i suggest any books by Oliver Sachs. Hes a neurologist, not a psychiatrist, but i think his insights are relevant to what you are asking.

For a specific discussion of mood disorders, I would suggest "A Mood Apart" by Peter Whybrow (sp?) That helped me a lot at a difficult stage in my life.

	24-06-2005 22:15									#4
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I agree they're overprescribed, and I know they only mask the problem, but as Matt Lauer said, it works for some people. To say it's all bad is obviously false, as there are many cases of people getting better because of it.

It doesn't change the cause, and changing the cause is a better thing to do, but where that's not possible, or too hard, etc. andi-depressants can be valuable to help.

	24-06-2005 22:16									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Colon I agree with your view. Call me prejudiced but I think psychiatry often results in people getting completely absorbed in their illness rather than "healing" them. And I don't like drugs at all.

Its a helluva lot better to be absorbed in the fact that you have depression, than to be absorbed in the fact that youre a total fVck up, that the world is evil, and that theres really no alternative to suicide. And of course a good therapist (who need not be shrink, but should work with a shrink) WILL try to get you focused on recovering, not on "wallowing".

	24-06-2005 22:23									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I agree they're overprescribed,

im not even sure of that. There are certainly people who get SSRI's who dont need them, but I think there are plenty of people who do need them and dont get them for a variety of reasons, INCLUDING the stigma on admitting you have a problem and need meds. Which is the larger number, I dont know.

I would suggest that there more people who would benefit from good therapy than from meds - but that raises a couple of questions 1. Almost everyone, even the "mentally healthy" would probably benefit from some sessions with a good therapist, and given the cost, the potential for abuse forces insurance companies to be stingy about therapy (here in the wonderland of private health insurance, at least) 2. Really good therapists are not easy to find. You find a really good one, whos a match for your personality, who will go easy when its needed, but who will push you and not let you "wallow" - youve found a rare gem.

	24-06-2005 22:24									#7
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There was an excellent article in the Wall Street Journal the other day about drugs for illnesses that don't have a large enough market or are too risky in other ways for drug companies to develop, even though the basic research had been done by the government.

One example used was schizophrenia drugs. No new major drugs for schizophrenia have been introduced in the last half century. To me, that means that few, if any, double blind studies have been done with regard to drugs for schizophrenia, a sometimes severe condition or group of conditions that impacts over 1% of the population. That floored me.

I'm used to thinking that we live in a very scientifically advanced society. But some things go directly counter to my habit of thinking that way.

	24-06-2005 22:26									#8
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quote: im not even sure of that.

In the first instance, I don't even know how we can know if the drugs are overprescribed.

	24-06-2005 22:55									#9
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I willing to bet that Cruise's lashing out on psychiatry is somehow motivated by Scientology.

I agree, we have to remain critical. But psychiatry and psychology remains our best knowledge on the mind and brain. To be blunt, psychiatry and psychology are less mature than, say, physics, in large part because the mind/brain is infinitely more complex than particles or solar systems. Throwing psychiatry and psychology overboard, because its allegedly pseudoscientific (like Cruise suggests in some interviews), is a dumb idea.

That said, there is a lot of room for improvement. Some conditions like ADD are overdiagnosed in some places, underdiagnosed in others. Some doctors don't even think ADD is a real disease, even though its in the DSM-IV. Diagnosing ADD isn't a simple matter, it takes time, the doctor has to review to childs or the adults history. But I read recently that some doctors prescribe Ritalin to children 10 minutes after meeting them... This is a problem. But is it a problem with our knowledge? No, its a problem with doctors, or with the medical system.

	24-06-2005 22:58									#10
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Its a helluva lot better to be absorbed in the fact that you have depression, than to be absorbed in the fact that youre a total fVck up, that the world is evil, and that theres really no alternative to suicide. And of course a good therapist (who need not be shrink, but should work with a shrink) WILL try to get you focused on recovering, not on "wallowing".

	24-06-2005 23:06									#11
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quote: He's no expert on the matter and comes off pretty callously with regard to Brooke Shields and post-partum depression.

He and Brooke are having a pretty public tiff, which is why he made those comments. A couple of weeks ago she pwned Tom with the following line:

quote: He should stick to saving the world from aliens and let women who are experiencing post-partum depression decide what treatment options are best from them.

That's a double-zinger because it takes a swipe at both:

1. Tom's "religion" (the big secret to scientology is that the world was once populated by aliens who are now living under some volcano somewhere (and no, I'm not making this up.))

2. Tom's well-publicized inability to knock up Nicole Kidman, despite 10 years of trying. At least Maury Povich had the excuse that his wife (Connie Chung) was 45 before she started wanting kids.

Go Brooke!

	24-06-2005 23:07									#12
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	24-06-2005 23:16									#13
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Tom is arrogant as always. Assuming he knows more than anyone else about the subject. hes done research.. Well whoopdedoo... does he have a Ph.D. in it.
nooooo .. So hes not an expert on the topic. hes probably read a few papers on the topic at his scientology workshops.. or whatever he goes to.

Psychology is just like any other practice. Always evolving and changing with new research and with new methods of treatment. The way people are treated now is vastly different from even 10 years ago.
and massively different from 30 years ago..
Sigmund Freud was the king of therapy but now some of his ideas are thought to be outdated by current research.

	24-06-2005 23:19									#14
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark im not even sure of that. There are certainly people who get SSRI's who dont need them, but I think there are plenty of people who do need them and dont get them for a variety of reasons, INCLUDING the stigma on admitting you have a problem and need meds. Which is the larger number, I dont know. I would suggest that there more people who would benefit from good therapy than from meds - but that raises a couple of questions 1. Almost everyone, even the "mentally healthy" would probably benefit from some sessions with a good therapist, and given the cost, the potential for abuse forces insurance companies to be stingy about therapy (here in the wonderland of private health insurance, at least) 2. Really good therapists are not easy to find. You find a really good one, whos a match for your personality, who will go easy when its needed, but who will push you and not let you "wallow" - youve found a rare gem.

Our folk psychology and scientific psychology are perpetually in conflict. A friend of mine suffers from anxiety disorder. We go see a movie and he leaves after a while. He sweats bullets when he has to go the barber... I heard some people call him a *****, a wuss. Not in his face, of course. But thats what they think of him. They can't seem to understand that its not under his control... The same goes with people who suffer from ADD. Peope say they're lazy, they're dumb...

	24-06-2005 23:21									#15
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quote: Originally posted by boann Tom is arrogant as always.

And you're being polite...

	24-06-2005 23:23									#16
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo Our folk psychology and scientific psychology are perpetually in conflict. A friend of mine suffers from anxiety disorder. We go see a movie and he leaves after a while. He sweats bullets when he has to go the barber... I heard some people call him a *****, a wuss. Not in his face, of course. But thats what they think of him. They can't seem to understand that its not under his control... The same goes with people who suffer from ADD. Peope say they're lazy, they're dumb...

My pet gripe is people saying "I dont need meds cause my depression is situational" or "i only need meds, not therapy, cause my depression is biochemical" when AFAIK, theres no scientific dinstinction between the two - all depressions are expressed biochemically in the brain, and can potentially be impacted by drugs, and all depressions are impacted by life situation, ways of thinking, etc.

	24-06-2005 23:26									#17
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo And you're being polite...

yes i try

hes an actor and needs to be reminded of that.
why do some actors get it in their heads that they
are all the charactors they play. and their egos
inflate to that proportion... believing that they are
the end all and know all to all things..

	24-06-2005 23:31									#18
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Not to take it off-topic or anything...

But just because he's an actor doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. I mean, Imran is a lawyer but when he talks about movies... hell.

I just pwned myself, didn't I?

	24-06-2005 23:34									#19
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Not to take it off-topic or anything... But just because he's an actor doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. I mean, Imran is a lawyer but when he talks about Star Wars... hell. I just pwned myself, didn't I?

Corrected

	24-06-2005 23:39									#20
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Imran claimed a couple of days ago not to remember a single line from Pulp Fiction.

No correction needed.

	24-06-2005 23:43									#21
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quote: Originally posted by boann yes i try hes an actor and needs to be reminded of that. why do some actors get it in their heads that they are all the charactors they play. and their egos inflate to that proportion... believing that they are the end all and know all to all things..

I have never seen a more ludicrous statement. So actors aren't supposed to express their opinions like doctors, lawyers, social workers, or homeless people?

Actors have just as much right to say what they think as anyone else. The only difference is that if a famous actor does it, people listen (partially because the media announces whatever someone with remote fame says.)

If, God willing, I ever become famous, you can bet your ass I'm going to use my fame to influence people, and maybe try to get things accomplished that I and like-minded people want to see.

Oh, and don't forget that Ronald Reagan, Charlton Heston, and Arnold Schwartzenegger were all actors, for those conservatives out there who think "liberal Hollywood" should stay out of politics.

	24-06-2005 23:45									#22
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quote: Imran claimed a couple of days ago not to remember a single line from Pulp Fiction.

How can you not remember:

(The mob boss just got buggered)

- Are you alright?

- I'm ****ing far from alright!

	24-06-2005 23:45									#23
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Oh, and don't forget that Ronald Reagan, Charlton Heston, and Arnold Schwartzenegger were all actors, for those conservatives out there who think "liberal Hollywood" should stay out of politics.

somehow that only confirms my opinion that actors should stay out of politics.

	24-06-2005 23:47									#24
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Not to take it off-topic or anything... But just because he's an actor doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about. I mean, Imran is a lawyer but when he talks about movies... hell. I just pwned myself, didn't I?

ok its true that he might know a FEW things about it.
im sure the scientology people made sure he could quote a few facts..
but the fact remains that just because he is famous doesn't mean everything he says is to be taken as the last word on the subject.
and because hes so intrenched in scientology i would
not really trust any thing he says on the subject.
since one of their big things is replacing therapy
with THEIR "therapy"

	24-06-2005 23:52									#25
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"Oh, and don't forget that Ronald Reagan, Charlton Heston, and Arnold Schwartzenegger were all actors, for those conservatives out there who think "liberal Hollywood" should stay out of politics."

like this is supposed to make me feel good ...
please...

i don't have any problem with him having or saying his opinon... its a free country...
i do have a problem with the fact that his rhetoric is like a fanatical religious person who won't listen or accept any other point of view but his own.

	24-06-2005 23:53									#26
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quote: Originally posted by boann i do have a problem with the fact that his rhetoric is like a fanatical religious person who won't listen or accept any other point of view but his own.

And that has exactly what to do with him being an actor?

Maybe you should take into consideration the possibility that he IS in fact a fanatical religious person.

	25-06-2005 00:01									#27
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous And that has exactly what to do with him being an actor? Maybe you should take into consideration the possibility that he IS in fact a fanatical religious person.

i don't know why you are stuck on this..
in my comment i said "some actors"
not all actors...

but ill say this again just because he is famous doesn't mean everything he says is to be taken as the last word on the subject.

great.. we agree hes a fanatical religious person.
whos an actor... who happens to be on national tv
spouting off about things he really probably isn't qualified to preach on.

and the reason its upsetting is that some people will listen to him and might not seek treatment for serious problems...

	25-06-2005 00:07									#28
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quote: Originally posted by nostromo How can you not remember: (The mob boss just got buggered) - Are you alright? - I'm ****ing far from alright!

i think i'm going to watch it again

	25-06-2005 00:07									#29
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quote: Originally posted by boann i don't know why you are stuck on this..

Because this is something I have to deal with all the time. "You're an entertainer, entertain"...blah blah. I'm also a person with opinions.

quote: but ill say this again just because he is famous doesn't mean everything he says is to be taken as the last word on the subject.

That's not a point we disagree upon. But I know plenty of people (just look around this board) who think they are the be all and know all on issues. I don't know of anyone who would ever say that any famous person is the last word.

quote: great.. we agree hes a fanatical religious person. whos an actor... who happens to be on national tv spouting off about things he really probably isn't qualified to preach on.

First, you gotta realize that everyone right now thinks he's INSANE. Second, he's no different from thousands if not millions of people who, for good reasons or bad, preach on things they may not be "qualified" for, famous and not.

quote: and the reason its upsetting is that some people will listen to him and might not seek treatment for serious problems...

Well, that is too bad, but does that mean he shouldn't be allowed to say what he thinks?

	25-06-2005 00:11									#30
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Second, he's no different from thousands if not millions of people who, for good reasons or bad, preach on things they may not be "qualified" for, famous and not.

But for better or worse, most people are not widely listened to on matters outside their area of competence, to anything nearly the extent that "celebrities" are (Paul Krugman excepted - and id hardly call him a celebrity economist, in the way that JK Galbraith was)

and of course not all celebrities are actors, or even entertainers, nor all actors celebrities. Its the cult of celebrity some of us have problems with, not the profession of acting per se.